Red Armstrong's new MAF setup
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Steve Wood
Active Member
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- Jul 18, 2001
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Well, we have the ME that is being developed and tested at the moment with NO maf, and we have Red with a 4" Maf, seems like there are plenty of options including the FAST system. So much for dying technology.
So it has wide band capability and as well as MAP referenced spark tables that are fully tuneable on a micro level? Not Macro or scaled but FULLY tuneable?
Let's see 1/4 of 1700 is 425. Does that include NEW injectors and the modifications to the ECM?
Hey, the man's got to feed his family...
- Joined
- May 23, 2001
- Messages
- 667
I already had the injectors and modified computer. What does an injector change have to do with running any of the systems? I am not a trying to be a Micro tuner and I have not seen a complete Fast system and WB 02 for $1700. That's cheap. I Know there is no better system for the micro tuner than the Fast and if I really wanted one I would have gotten one long ago. I guess that good old MAX Effort and Steve Yaklin saved me and it is a nice set up. I will be into the 9s soon and that’s fast enough for me in my streetcar at 3700lbs. Red's MAF and the Max Effort have been into the 9’s already.
I did not post to debate systems, only to answer the original
question with the information I knew. I am sure when Red's Raptor MAF goes on the market he will answer any questions. Red's parts always seem to get the job done. I feel he has made a huge difference in the Buick performance. He has never built an all out racecar and if you look at his car you would never believe it runs 9s. Try to find his front mount IC, or his Weldon fuel pump, ect. He uses a stock appearing street approach that I like and admire. Everyone should go buy what makes them happy and you feel is best for your combo and expertise. I have my opinions but I do not like to say what is best for others, only what I have done.
Just go FAST!
"How does he remove a limitation of the ECM???? If he 1/2's the AF reading, then he stole the workings of a translator!! I hope this new piece isnt stealing Bobs bread and butter, cuz that just aint right! And would probably make the translator the last device he makes for us..."
Jim when did you ever see Red "steal" off another product?
I'll be testing the no MAF on the Max Eff shorlyt compared to the std Max Eff I've bee using. So far it looks promising.
By the way Kenny Duttweiller said the Fel pro system works well but dont rely on the O2 correction completely during a run. He said it doesnt correct fast enough and that to use for an overlay on the next run.
So there are many pros and cons to it.
Jim when did you ever see Red "steal" off another product?
I'll be testing the no MAF on the Max Eff shorlyt compared to the std Max Eff I've bee using. So far it looks promising.
By the way Kenny Duttweiller said the Fel pro system works well but dont rely on the O2 correction completely during a run. He said it doesnt correct fast enough and that to use for an overlay on the next run.
So there are many pros and cons to it.
Youre not supposed to rely on the correction, its more of a tuning tool, and a safety net.
The corrections indicate adjustments that may be necessary, and should something go awry, they could save your motor. Notice I said COULD.
My buddy started seeing corrections going high, watching this trend made him realize his fuel pump was going out. Once a cal is good/perfect, corrections should be minimal except where there is a malfunction occuring.
I never said Red stole anything. He's come up with some neat stuff. But, I hate to say it, its mostly fluff. XP is a shimmed Park ave pump (AC delco #'s scratched off...I have one, so its not like I've never seen one) XP Plus is what, a shimmed 307? Volt booster, I dont know who did it first, but I'd bet Spina,.
Theres no arguing he makes a fast car, and he may be a god of the turbo buick world. All I'm saying it is surreeee sounds like a translator, or derivative.
The corrections indicate adjustments that may be necessary, and should something go awry, they could save your motor. Notice I said COULD.
My buddy started seeing corrections going high, watching this trend made him realize his fuel pump was going out. Once a cal is good/perfect, corrections should be minimal except where there is a malfunction occuring.
I never said Red stole anything. He's come up with some neat stuff. But, I hate to say it, its mostly fluff. XP is a shimmed Park ave pump (AC delco #'s scratched off...I have one, so its not like I've never seen one) XP Plus is what, a shimmed 307? Volt booster, I dont know who did it first, but I'd bet Spina,.
Theres no arguing he makes a fast car, and he may be a god of the turbo buick world. All I'm saying it is surreeee sounds like a translator, or derivative.
Doesn't Kenny sell the high end Motec systems?
I didn't buy the WB02 just to add it to my signature! You better believe I count on it to save my arse, and it has. The correction limits are there for that. It has a pretty high sampling rate so you're going to catch most problems. The only things it will miss would kill ANY motor, blown off boost line on the FPR, dead fuel pump... Nothing will catch all that. You CANNOT get out of it and right back in though. It immediately starts pulling fuel out and if you got in it, you'd be big time lean.
You use the corrections to set your map correctly but there's no reason you can't leave it slightly rich and go closed loop. More cushion if you desire. Mine is set +25% / -10%.
Injector change? If it's for a hipo motor you'll need to change the injector drivers won't you? That is if you haven't spent that money already.
Actually, I think it is great someone is adding parts to our available catalog. Diversity is for the better. Anything has it's pro's and cons.
EDIT, I was trying to link to TurboArchie's NEW $1700 WB02 system. Go buy it if it's that cheap. I only paid $1800 WITH 75# injectors and sold my crap for $600. How much would the Raper / Reamptor cost?
qwknuf6 jr
100% street car
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2002
- Messages
- 358
Not sure it uses the translater type chip ,The air meter is from a Ford Lighting from what I understand and can read up to 800 grams of air
- Joined
- May 23, 2001
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Red does his own thing and has never had to steal an idea. Let me think, No one would ever copied his old double stock or 17 row intercoolers, Double pumpers and they would never make a volt booster, he was the first. In the old days when people was puting on dump pipes and cutting holes in fender wells, he came up with a 3" downpipe that later became the TH downpipe with Red's help.
Who got Precision Converters to build a heavy duty lock up- Red.
It was him, going to John Craig asking for certain wheels in turbos when no else was even thinking about- Red. Heck he even designed his own cams. Why would he bother with a 307 anyway, when the 340 is around. I could go on but why? I have never gotten anything from him that did not do it's job.
Funny how people have been copying his "fluff", for so many years.
Believe me the Raptor is not a not a Translator. Anyone run a 9 sec pass with a Translator?
And people are asking "where is Ron". Sometimes it's easier not to get involved in things. Takes too much time. I need to tend to my own business too.
Only reason some asked where ron is is that we see he has run quite a number (10.10) and we want to know his take on it, I mean he is a guru so we can all learn from him. I congratulated him on the gsca bb onhis 10.10 run and asked him if he noticed any EGT difference with the power plate and I noticed that he runs reds raptor and wanted to know more.
I know ron runs a very successful business that specializes in these cars and their applicable speed but I know he has found time in the past, like last July to join this bb and post, so I am sure he can when he's got a free moment jump on and add to the raptor thread.
I know ron runs a very successful business that specializes in these cars and their applicable speed but I know he has found time in the past, like last July to join this bb and post, so I am sure he can when he's got a free moment jump on and add to the raptor thread.
Warp6
Mine since '92
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
- Messages
- 1,882
Has anyone actually spoken to Red? If so, what's the deal?
Red's MAF
Red's MAF looked pretty clean for a "mule/beta" level part.I thought he said it would be anodized "Red" once in production.He must have a sense of humor.Red did show me DATA from the device (maybe direct scan,don't know).The curve looked reasonably flat.I agree that the weakest link in the system is the old 8 bit Motorola processor & thimbell full of memory.There is no way (with the stock box ) to escape 255gps.Both Bob/Red took some math classes in school, so they know that 1/2 * 2=1.Anyone trying to read the air passing thru the MAF is forced to factor.There are other methods as well.A friend of Steve Yaklin 's is running 9's on the stock box using "old tech".Turbo Bobs translator was a definite innovation.His knowledge from "algebra 1" along with other factors began the notion that we could read the air.Someone has said that few run fast on the translator.I think if the req'd tuning time is spent ,the translator is only limited by the LS1 MAF & the 8 bit Motorola.Bottom line,if people want to have their fuel under control,mathematics will be used by more than just Steve & Bob.Its a good thing that people are experimenting cause otherwise,the gasket vendors will be filthy rich.
Red's MAF looked pretty clean for a "mule/beta" level part.I thought he said it would be anodized "Red" once in production.He must have a sense of humor.Red did show me DATA from the device (maybe direct scan,don't know).The curve looked reasonably flat.I agree that the weakest link in the system is the old 8 bit Motorola processor & thimbell full of memory.There is no way (with the stock box ) to escape 255gps.Both Bob/Red took some math classes in school, so they know that 1/2 * 2=1.Anyone trying to read the air passing thru the MAF is forced to factor.There are other methods as well.A friend of Steve Yaklin 's is running 9's on the stock box using "old tech".Turbo Bobs translator was a definite innovation.His knowledge from "algebra 1" along with other factors began the notion that we could read the air.Someone has said that few run fast on the translator.I think if the req'd tuning time is spent ,the translator is only limited by the LS1 MAF & the 8 bit Motorola.Bottom line,if people want to have their fuel under control,mathematics will be used by more than just Steve & Bob.Its a good thing that people are experimenting cause otherwise,the gasket vendors will be filthy rich.
Let's see,
for what I'm running,
junkyard 148, $20, and spare another $20
driver modification $120
Romless conversion $15
Editing software 0
Pocket programmer $150
Couple EEPROMS $12
Translator $250
MAF $30
OK $600
I have developed the source code for my car. So I can change anything I can imagine, and not limited to what any aftermarketer wants to shackle me with. In a pinch I can drive home on my spare $20 ecm, so I'm not stranded if the ecm dies. If I don't like any part of the code I can delete it, or change it.
So for $600 I can do anything I'm willing to design, or beg help in getting done, and have a spare.
Granted this is more work, but alot cheaper, and many times more powerful then any aftermarket I know of.
While still just fuel only the Megasquirt is even a better deal, but it requires assembly...
About father ron
I happened to be at his shop the other day talking to paul, when I saw him sitting in his chair. It made me think about Red's MAF and this post. So I decided to ask him a few questions about it. He was reluctant to answer my questions directly, the only thing he told me was that this "new" MAF adjusts for injector pulse width, or something to that effect. So there is no adjusting the FP. He said this thing only works with Red's chip. (some type of extender chip????) This thing is all plug and play. Ron also told me that he got four tenths out of it. He said it shouldent be out until july or august. When I asked him about price I got no answer and when I asked him to make a post for our inquireing minds he refused. So there you have it.
I happened to be at his shop the other day talking to paul, when I saw him sitting in his chair. It made me think about Red's MAF and this post. So I decided to ask him a few questions about it. He was reluctant to answer my questions directly, the only thing he told me was that this "new" MAF adjusts for injector pulse width, or something to that effect. So there is no adjusting the FP. He said this thing only works with Red's chip. (some type of extender chip????) This thing is all plug and play. Ron also told me that he got four tenths out of it. He said it shouldent be out until july or august. When I asked him about price I got no answer and when I asked him to make a post for our inquireing minds he refused. So there you have it.
i talked to john on the phone today to have my computer done for low impedence injectors and he told me that reds wife car had 640 hp and when they put the maf on it went to 693 hp 53 hp gain but on cars with less than 400 hp won't see big hp and the price is between $500 to $600 dollars thanks Rob
It seems I stand corrected. If I'm wrong I'll say so.
This new MAF device seems to be of a different design than Bob's device. It uses a specially calibrated MAF (to injector size) and a interface which controls more than just the fueling aspects of the MAF device. Suffice to say, its not a translator. I still dont get how we have gotten a remedy to the ECM's physical limitation, but thats above me, so I'll leave that to the EE's and programmers.
My apologies to any offended.
I still dont need one, FAST is speed density
This new MAF device seems to be of a different design than Bob's device. It uses a specially calibrated MAF (to injector size) and a interface which controls more than just the fueling aspects of the MAF device. Suffice to say, its not a translator. I still dont get how we have gotten a remedy to the ECM's physical limitation, but thats above me, so I'll leave that to the EE's and programmers.
My apologies to any offended.
I still dont need one, FAST is speed density
John,
Doesnt suprise me ron refuses to post, he only posts when its convenient for him like last July with your car but wont drag that up as its water under the bridge.
I am sure we will all hear about reds new maf in the gsxtra or high tech mag.
If ron picked up 4 tenths then I am gonna buy one.
Doesnt suprise me ron refuses to post, he only posts when its convenient for him like last July with your car but wont drag that up as its water under the bridge.
I am sure we will all hear about reds new maf in the gsxtra or high tech mag.
If ron picked up 4 tenths then I am gonna buy one.
gnjones231
Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
- Messages
- 49
I don't understand what all the fuss is here. I've been running a hogged out Ford style maf on my car off and on for close to 5 years already. And it only cost me about $50 to do it. The conversion is very easy...just an opamp for a little offset and gain, and an AD654 to do voltage to frequency conversion. After that, change the maf tables in the prom to reflect the new maf. Took me an afternoon to do the switch and it worked perfectly from idle to WOT the first try. One of the big reasons it worked right off was because I used my high speed datalogger and logged the Ford maf against the stock maf, and then figured out the maf tables from there. This also took care of the 255g/s limit , has way less restriction than a sotck maf, and is a faster reacting maf in general. I have since moved on to bigger and better things. Take care.
Dave
gnjones231
Dave
gnjones231
