Running mid-low 12's reliably...

[MR.BLONDE]

care to elaborate Trent or are you referring to your sig?

Looks like the best way to go for street, pump gas, 12's is a different turbo. It seems like a lot of people go stock motor/heads/intercooler with an upgraded turbo and cam. That may be an alternative for me. I do want to keep it somewhat stock appearing under the hood.

UNGN:

you start off by saying with Champion heads and more injector I could approach mid 12's on 93 pump gas and then you turn around and say if you run 93 octane 100% of the time dont buy a Turbo Regal. So is it or is it not feasible to have a daily driven mid 12 sec street TR or GN? By street I mean no slicks and no race gas. This car will be driven to the track, ran, and driven home.

Me personally and for my lifestyle I would rather spend the $1000 and not have to have the inconvenience of race gas.

So where can I read more about Alky-injection?

 

[dconnor]

If you want to run mid/low 12's on nothing but 93 octane pump gas you'd better plan on building a solid mid 11 "race trim" combo 1st! Alky injection will go a long way towards making your goal much easier to reach, is a straightforward install & uses a CHEAP additive source (rubbing alcohol.)

Here is my 1st TR's combo which ran 100+ passes in the 12.40 @ 110 mph range:

Stock long block & injectors
Stock tranny w/ 2800 rpm converter & good cooler
Ported stock turbo
Bell mouthed stock intercooler
All the basic freebie mods (blocked TB coolant, breathers, boost valve, etc...)
Shimmed Syclone fuel pump (this was pre-Walbro era)
K&N filter w/ homemade cold air intake
Conley's Performance Plus Mini Mag (street) & Mag 4 (race) chips
3" into dual 2 1/2 inch muffler shop exhaust w/ flowmasters (better than stock but still restrictive)
Street Sweeper dump off the turbo elbow (old tech CPP mod, basically like a dump pipe right off of the turbo)
Gutted catalytic converter
Boost, fuel pressure & oil pressure guages

Pure street trim on 255-60-15 radials, 93 pump gas, mini-Mag chip & ~17 lbs of boost the car would run consistent 13.2's ~ 13teens @ ~ 105 mph. In kill mode (100 octane unleaded xylene homebrew, mag 4 chip, 26-8-15" slicks & ~22 lbs of boost) car ran well over 100 passes in the 12.40 @ 110 mph range. The ability to run higher boost through the use of high octane gas AND by making sure the car is in a state of tune to take advantage of this (higher timing chip, good tires, etc...) has a pretty dang BIG effect on your average TR's timeslip!!!

Doug C.

 

[MR.BLONDE]

Where can I read about Alky-injection?

How many different kits are out there? What are most favored?

 

[dconnor]

The SMC kit is popular & Jay Carter makes a good system as well, try the Alky / Nitrous forum for more detailed info. Boiled down to the basics, alcohol injection allows you to run at the same tune "level" as 100 octane race gas would. IE, higher boost & more aggresive timing than you can run on 93 octane pump gas alone...

Doug C.

 

[MR.BLONDE]

Yeah I think the Alky way will be a lot better than race gas. Mainly because it is a lot cheaper for a daily driver than race gas. It seems the SMC kit is more to my liking because of the in-car control.

Adjustability of the pump, adjustable boost trigger, and a light indicating when the alky is low all appeals to me.

So now maybe I'm looking at stock block, ported stock turbo (maybe an upgraded turbo), cam, exhaust, intake, 160 thermo, maybe some minor headwork (stock heads-valvetrain), good chip for 93 octane with alky, torque converter, Art Carr shift kit, and some sticky tires. Probably ignition upgrade also.

Does this sound pretty solid?

 

[dconnor]

Just stick with the stock cam, it's got more than enough gusto for your goals & will work fine deep into the 11's. IMHO unless the motor NEEDS a rebuild, stay out of the block aside from needed maintenance items such as a timing set & valve springs. The stock ignition is also more than adequate for your goals (my car runs 11.4's@119.6 on the stock ignition system), so that's more money you can put elsewhere...

You'll want to pay special attention to getting the car to hook well (big issue since you don't want to run slicks! Boxed control arms, air bags in the rear springs, drag radials, etc...) and be sure to use parts/mods that complement each other & work well together as a whole. COMBO & state of tune is the key to making these cars run well!

I'd suggest spending that cam/ignition money on a scan tool such as Direct Scan or a Scan Master, which will help keep the car in primo tune & save you a lot of money in broken parts!!!

Also, be sure to read through (and memorize!) www.gnttype.org if ya haven't already, it's a GREAT source of info for newbie's & prospective owners.

Doug C.

 

[J Banning]

I agree with dconnor... don't mess with the cam. You can reach your goals with the stocker.

-B

 

[MR.BLONDE]

Okay so nix the cam. I meant to put a ScanMaster on that list..oops!

Hmm, thats interesting about the ignition. I figured it would be worthwhile on a "high octane" turbo car. But I will try it with just the Buick DIS to start.

As far as hooking, I completely agree. I have owned both a 96 SS and a 98 T/A and found that to be worthwhile on those cars also. Where is a good place to look at airbags, control arms, and other suspension parts.

I have been trying to consume as much as possible from gnttype.org .

Thanks for all the help..I know it sucks helping the noob sometimes

 

[UNGN]

Originally posted by MR.BLONDE
UNGN:

you start off by saying with Champion heads and more injector I could approach mid 12's on 93 pump gas and then you turn around and say if you run 93 octane 100% of the time dont buy a Turbo Regal. So is it or is it not feasible to have a daily driven mid 12 sec street TR or GN? By street I mean no slicks and no race gas. This car will be driven to the track, ran, and driven home.

You need to build a low 11 second TR to run mid 12's in the manner you want to run your TR. The logic is simple: If you spent all that money on a big turbo and good heads, do you think you wouldn't spend $25 bucks on race gas to run low 11's at the track (vs. mid 12's)?

I drive mine to the track, run and then drive home. The fastest I've run with pump gas was 12.84@104. Then I realized it was dumb and risky it was to run my car like that. From that point forward I have used at least some race gas in my car when running. Sometime only a little, sometimes straight. Race gas is insurance. You buy some to keep bad things from happening.

 

[MR.BLONDE]

Very good point

I guess my main concern since I will be driving it most of the time around the city and not on the track is that I have a 12 sec street car. What I get at the track really doesn't concern me so much. Both of my former F-Body's were mid-low 12 sec cars and I wanted to have the GN/Regal in the same area. I;m just sick of F-Bodies!

 

[azgn]

many new guys think just because they got their ass handed to them by a GN at the track that that performance can be duplicated on the street.....for the most part, that is a myth...your f-body had 350 cu to generate essentially the same power as we do with 231 cu...that is why race fuel is required, plain and simple

you can overbuild your motor so it will run on the street, but without a little help (like alky) you will be putting a lot at risk

if you want a fast street car, get a Viper and save yourself some money!

 

[striker_29]

Originally posted by MR.BLONDE
So now maybe I'm looking at stock block, ported stock turbo (maybe an upgraded turbo), cam, exhaust, intake, 160 thermo, maybe some minor headwork (stock heads-valvetrain), good chip for 93 octane with alky, torque converter, Art Carr shift kit, and some sticky tires. Probably ignition upgrade also.

Does this sound pretty solid?

Rock solid. Now your thinking right in track. From what you are saying you want, an Smc alky kit is THE way to go.

 

[Fred 86 GN]

12's on pump gas (93).

IMO --

Get a bigger turbo -- at least a 49 or 44, a 60-series would be better -- to move more air at 17psi.

Get a killer set of heads -- Champion full-zoot cast irons or the aluminum heads.

Get a CAS V4 or better yet a front mount intercooler to lower the air temperature as much as posible.

A nice street chip (93) that is a little rich at WOT would help.

Get a better torque converter that stalls higher and has a higher toque multilplication ratio than the stock D5.

Should get bigger injectors -- like blue tops (36lbers) at a minimum -- for more fuel and the ability to run a "bonzi" blast at the track with race gas on occation.

Stick Nittos or BFG drag radial tires on the rear -- 275s to get some sort of traction. I have ran 109mph in the quarter mile and only a 13.1 because the 255 radial tires would not hook once the boost came on!

Do all that, and the car should run in the 12's pretty easily. Most stockish TRs run low 13's on 93 pump gas. What is listed above is far from stock (mid-11 combo or better) so it should get the extra 50-80hp to run the mid-12's you want.

NO race gas. NO alcohol injection. Just simple air flow and air cooling.

HTH

 

[GS70350]

you will need a turbo, a TA49 or TE44 will work good on the street, get yourself a new intercooler, not a big neck. i know a big neck will run aobut 100 bucks once you get it all installed and everything, but then your still stuck with 17 year old intercooler technology. what you will want is probably a CAS V4 stock location intercooler, if you want stock location, or you can go with a variety of front mount intercoolers, some are cheap, some are really expensive. get a set of MSD 50lbs injectors, a walbro 340 fuel pump, hotwire it, and get an adjustable fuel pressure regulator too. For the chip, go with a chip for 100 octane fuel, and buy the SMC alcohol injection setup, with the dual nozzles, for 350 or so, and turn the boost up to say, 22 or so. then get some drag radials, air bags, box in your rear control arms, get new shocks, etc. get yourself some new plugs and plug wires, have the tranny serviced, and run synthetic mobil 1 motor oil, : ). also get a power plate from RJC, and knife edge your throttle body, and do all the common well known mods. for exhaust, go with a 2.75 to 3 inch downpipe, and gut the catalytic converter, and get a nice cat back system. that right there, should plant you in the low 12s IMO. if you run race fuel, slicks, and a high timing chip, at about 23 to 24 psi boost, i bet you will run 11.70s once its all tuned perhaps??? also, remove all the weight you can, that means cruse control if you dont use it, sound deadening, aluminum wheels perhaps, export braces on the bumpers, or aluminum braces, aluminum rear drums, put yourself on a diet too. hehe.

that should do it. and i would say you will spend a bit of cash too.

i think that with that combo, you will easi

 

[MR.BLONDE]

Thanks for the advice guys. I am definitely going alky injection and probably the 44 turbo. I think the stock location intercooler would be better for me personally.