Simple or serious problem? 85 200 4R

[W30post]

I have a 200 4R in my 72 Cutlass 455 car (very mild). There have been a couple people here that have helped on getting my boost valves installed correctly and other thiings and I appreciate it. I have put about 500 miles on the car and I am noticing a trend that I am very concerned about. Here it is...

First thing after firing up the car it shifts wonderfully. Firm upshifts on all gears. The longer I drive the softer the shifts get. Friday last week it was almost 80F outside and I got caught in traffic for a little bit. After that it was very soft on the 2-3 shift even though the 1-2 was still pretty firm.

Here is where I am at, I have a good bit of money tied up in the trans ~ $700 or maybe a little more for my taste and it still be having issues. I know the servo and pin should be replaced because of wear at the interface between the two. I also know I would like to install a deep pan and 700 R4 filter or something similar for better fluid temps and pick-up.

What I have... Started with a stock 85 200 4r that was claimed to be rebuilt. I installed a Transgo shift improver, 500 Boost valve and 400 Reverse boost valve. I have a stack type cooler after the radiator as far as flow but in front located on the lower radiator hose side (more heat behind the cooler). I also rerouted the cooler lines away from the exhaust manifold, basically hugging the motor mount because the original lines basically followed the exhaust pipe less than 1/2 inch away from it..

I want this car fixed. I am to a point that if it is $300 or higher to get there a 400 turbo is probably going back in the car. Any suggestions left that could be my problem that could be a cheap fix? I have dumped the fluid in this trans too many times to care to do it again. Just looking for anyone that has seen this same problem before and knows what will fix it.

Bad pump, bad servo pin, a particular seal internal to the trans that needs to be replaced by a complete rebuild? Anyone care to explain this?

I don't have a budget left for the trans I need to finish other crap and start enjoying the car. Sorry for the long post.

 

[mikestertwo]

The problem sounds like you really don't know what was put in the trans when it was "rebuilt". Putting a 2004r on the back of an Olds 455 is not a good idea without the proper mods in the trans. 455's are torque monsters. I raced them for years and I know the power they can put out. Even though you have a "mild" build on the motor, the 200-4r has to be built right to handle the torque of one of those motors. If you really don't have the funds to build the trans to handle that kind of torque, I would put the TH400 back in. The 200-4r can be made to handle the torque but it will cost money and it will be a lot more than $300.

 

[QUIP'6']

I have a 200 4R in my 72 Cutlass 455 car (very mild). There have been a couple people here that have helped on getting my boost valves installed correctly and other thiings and I appreciate it. I have put about 500 miles on the car and I am noticing a trend that I am very concerned about. Here it is...

First thing after firing up the car it shifts wonderfully. Firm upshifts on all gears. The longer I drive the softer the shifts get. Friday last week it was almost 80F outside and I got caught in traffic for a little bit. After that it was very soft on the 2-3 shift even though the 1-2 was still pretty firm.

Here is where I am at, I have a good bit of money tied up in the trans ~ $700 or maybe a little more for my taste and it still be having issues. I know the servo and pin should be replaced because of wear at the interface between the two. I also know I would like to install a deep pan and 700 R4 filter or something similar for better fluid temps and pick-up.

What I have... Started with a stock 85 200 4r that was claimed to be rebuilt. I installed a Transgo shift improver, 500 Boost valve and 400 Reverse boost valve. I have a stack type cooler after the radiator as far as flow but in front located on the lower radiator hose side (more heat behind the cooler). I also rerouted the cooler lines away from the exhaust manifold, basically hugging the motor mount because the original lines basically followed the exhaust pipe less than 1/2 inch away from it..

I want this car fixed. I am to a point that if it is $300 or higher to get there a 400 turbo is probably going back in the car. Any suggestions left that could be my problem that could be a cheap fix? I have dumped the fluid in this trans too many times to care to do it again. Just looking for anyone that has seen this same problem before and knows what will fix it.

Bad pump, bad servo pin, a particular seal internal to the trans that needs to be replaced by a complete rebuild? Anyone care to explain this?

I don't have a budget left for the trans I need to finish other crap and start enjoying the car. Sorry for the long post.

sounds like expansion issues in the valvebody since the performance changes with time and heat could be warped valve body or hairline crack

 

[cwmccray]

That torque monster 455 will kill any valve body other than BR, OZ, CZ. Pull the pan check that valvebody. AA valvebody's properly setup can withstand alot of power. GN - BR, Hurst Olds - OZ and Monte SS -CZ. If you are lucky, Pull-a part yards have wrecked SS in them. Good luck if you find a Hurst or GN. The cooler the car, the better the tran shifts. My 74 Cutlass was a SLEEPER.. Refrigerator White.. 3.42, Turbo 400 and Mondelo-headed 455 with a MILD roller... You had to REALLY listen for the lope. Oops I forgot to mention the 150hp NOS plate under the 1000 cfm Carb shop Qjet. It ran 7.60 on motor. I had issues launching with Mickey Thompson SS tire. I could not launch stalled against the brakes. I left at idle and 10 feet past the tree ALL HELL broke loose... Massive torque and 10ft black stripes on the 1-2 shift and 2-3 shift. Sound like the wrong valvebody. Get a Hi-po valvebody out of GN - BR, Hurst Olds - OZ and Monte SS -CZ.

 

[77 cruiser]

The fisrt thing would be do a line press. test hot & cold, sounds like you have a hot press. problem.

 

[W30post]

That torque monster 455 will kill any valve body other than BR, OZ, CZ. Pull the pan check that valvebody. AA valvebody's properly setup can withstand alot of power. GN - BR, Hurst Olds - OZ and Monte SS -CZ. If you are lucky, Pull-a part yards have wrecked SS in them. Good luck if you find a Hurst or GN. The cooler the car, the better the tran shifts. My 74 Cutlass was a SLEEPER.. Refrigerator White.. 3.42, Turbo 400 and Mondelo-headed 455 with a MILD roller... You had to REALLY listen for the lope. Oops I forgot to mention the 150hp NOS plate under the 1000 cfm Carb shop Qjet. It ran 7.60 on motor. I had issues launching with Mickey Thompson SS tire. I could not launch stalled against the brakes. I left at idle and 10 feet past the tree ALL HELL broke loose... Massive torque and 10ft black stripes on the 1-2 shift and 2-3 shift. Sound like the wrong valvebody. Get a Hi-po valvebody out of GN - BR, Hurst Olds - OZ and Monte SS -CZ.

Thanks for your descriptions here but my car really is a mild 455. Less than 9 to 1 compression and full exhaust. Most people claim thier grandmothers run bigger cams than what I chose. Maybe and I mean on a good day, 365 HP and maybe 425 lbFt of torque. I have not put any hard driving on this trans. It is a cruiser for me. I am getting around 17 MPG and loving it. I just hate the pressures changing as the temp goes up. Where do I measure these pressures and what are good numbers?

Also, This car has the D5 converter and the pink stripe on the valve body if that means anything.

 

[bison]

Get us some line pressures when hot and on gear changes. You will need a helper to check the pressures between gear changes.

 

[77 cruiser]

1/8 in. pipe plug by the manual shift linkage, 0-300 psi guage min. TV & max. TV at about 1000-1500 rpm in all gears. Post the numbers someone will tell you if they are good or not.

 

[jakeshoe]

As stated check the pressures cold and hot.

You may have a pump that was built with too loose tolerances and is bleeding off precious pressure when hot.

You can buy a pump from a reputable vendor and probably solve it if this proves to be the issue.

Also,
if you are running it overfilled it could be aerating the fluid and causing pressure loss. Does the fluid look frothed at all on the dispstick when warmed up after driving?

 

[W30post]

Sorry for the delay but finally found a working gauge and time to hook it all up, again. There are some round off errors in these measurements as I was driving and reading at the same time. They should give you a pretty good idea of what was going on. Pressure rise was instantaneous on throttle movement.

Here is a chart for the functions and maybe I got everything you guys are asking for.

LOW RPM (no tach but very light throttle)
Auto shift Cold PSI Warm PSI
1/2 85 80
2/3 85 80

Manual Shift (throttle might have been a little heavier)
1/2 210 185
2/3 200\90 210\85 (second number is pressure after the shift change)

HIGH RPM (WOT shifts around 5000)
Auto shift Cold PSI Warm PSI
1/2 180 185
2/3 180 185 (no drop)

Manual
1/2 210 210
2/3 210 210\90/185 (second number is pressure drop, third number is pressure rise almost immediately after the drop)

IDLE at cold and hot was around 60 PSI. 50 MPH should be around 1600 RPM and gave 65 PSI. Reverse read 120 sitting on the driveway cold and hot.

Alright, from these readings should I have a problem with the front pump?
I may have an issue with a 0.500 TV valve and a 0.400 reverse boost valve because of the lower pressures present when shifting automatically and the pressure drops when shifting from second to third, but I'm not the expert.

I took the measurements for warm after the third gear started shifting very soft, almost like slipping.

Two concern areas for me, pressure leak on the servo piston to pin interface and the other is, if the valve body plate was drilled too large when the shift improver was installed. Let me nkow what is the real problem...

 

[W30post]

Does anyone have any ideas on this trans issue now that pressures are posted?

 

[77 cruiser]

Press. is a bit on the low side. What's in it for a prss. reg. spring?

 

[W30post]

The spring that came in the Transgo Kit.

Aside from being low, it does not change after the trans starts acting up. I cut a seal a long time ago(now replaced) on the servo piston closest to the cover side. This caused a very weak shift to second. Could the pin to servo wear cause enough of a leak to make third gear weak? Should I get a 0.570 boost valve and install also?

I am ready for a yes this will fix your problem answer if anyone can say this will do it for sure.....

 

[bison]

What do you have in there for boost valves?

 

[W30post]

0.500 boost and 0.400 reverse boost.

 

[W30post]

Looks like some of the problem was the clearance at the piston and servo. I ordered a larger servo and installed this weekend.

Shifts were better than I have ever felt on this trans. I drove it around for about 30 minutes with no trouble. Then something changed for the worse.

The car started feeling like it was locking up the torque converter right after the second gear shift. Then the third gear shift went very soft.... I pulled the shifter back to second at around 25 MPH and that is when the cloud of white smoke started following my car... The front seal blew out.

I can say, I followed the Transgo Kit to a Tee with the exception of drilling the drain backs. This read as an optional statement since it said "if the trans is out of the car do the pump tech" so I skipped it. I know this is probably the reason I have trans fluid all over the bottom of my 12 year restoration today.... And cut knuckles from the clean-up work after the cooldown...

I'm tired guys. I am giving up on tranny work and allowing the "professionals" to fix this. I will be taking the trans to them with the directions of what has been done and what I skipped in the directions.

What I need from you guys, a list of what I should buy to make a reliable 500 lb/ft tranny out of this core now.... I know I should get the red alto clutches and the particular band mentioned on here multiple times, but what else?

 

[QUIP'6']

Looks like some of the problem was the clearance at the piston and servo. I ordered a larger servo and installed this weekend.

Shifts were better than I have ever felt on this trans. I drove it around for about 30 minutes with no trouble. Then something changed for the worse.

The car started feeling like it was locking up the torque converter right after the second gear shift. Then the third gear shift went very soft.... I pulled the shifter back to second at around 25 MPH and that is when the cloud of white smoke started following my car... The front seal blew out.

I can say, I followed the Transgo Kit to a Tee with the exception of drilling the drain backs. This read as an optional statement since it said "if the trans is out of the car do the pump tech" so I skipped it. I know this is probably the reason I have trans fluid all over the bottom of my 12 year restoration today.... And cut knuckles from the clean-up work after the cooldown...

I'm tired guys. I am giving up on tranny work and allowing the "professionals" to fix this. I will be taking the trans to them with the directions of what has been done and what I skipped in the directions.

What I need from you guys, a list of what I should buy to make a reliable 500 lb/ft tranny out of this core now.... I know I should get the red alto clutches and the particular band mentioned on here multiple times, but what else?

had a transblow in my car and it did the same thing the front pump blew and it was locking the convertor in second and burned up the clutch this was after 50 miles or so when i took off the convertor the paint was burnt off and flaking

 

[W30post]

had a transblow in my car and it did the same thing the front pump blew and it was locking the convertor in second and burned up the clutch this was after 50 miles or so when i took off the convertor the paint was burnt off and flaking

So what did you do? What did they find wrong?

 

[Hacksaw]

Well, for starters, you need to drill the front seal drainback.:wink:

BARE minimum, any 200-4R:

You will need a set of harder pump rings (stock self destruct easily) & pump slide spring, a hardened stator support (installed right, pressed in, not pounded in!), 3 friction in the 4th clutches (you can machine the piston for 3, Bruce or Chris's has a ready made piston for 3), the improved Alto band, and a hardened sun shell if it doesn't have one.

And which valve body are you using? The best are BR, (from later GN's), followed by BQ, CZ, KZ, & OZ.

You have a valve body kit, bigger servo, and bigger boost valve, all also needed. Then, there's the internal rebuilding stuff, like refinishing the Direct Clutch Drum, and setting clearances right.

An improved pick up & billet parts are in order if you plan to get on it.

 

[QUIP'6']

So what did you do? What did they find wrong?

took out transgo and put in a recalibration kit from ck performance