STILL cannot get this alky kit tuned right!

[d0n_3d]

OK i am having a hell of a time still, trying to get this car to run with no knock CONSISTANTLY with the dual nozzle smc kit...

i have my fuel pressure set at 45 psi line off (38 line on) just like the extender chip instructions tell me to...(running 50 lb injectors btw)

my boost has been set a different rates...but i get knock real early all the time when i go WOT...sometimes it starts at 15 lbs of boost...other times it will be as low as 10 lbs of boost! it varies everyday for some reason...some days it's better than others

i have the pump speed set on 8 but even that doesn't matter...i put it on 10 max and it will still knock

turn on point has been set at 13 lbs...then 10 lbs...now 5 lbs...hell i even tried as soon as 1 psi would hit and it would STILL knock!!! my max boost right now is 22 lbs...

i have come up with a few ideas as to what might be causing this...1. i am running too lean on fuel even with the alky spraying 2. this stock intercooler is heating up tremendously fast and is causing really hot intake temps, maybe it's time to upgrade to a V4... or 3. this is false knock because when i downshift with this new tranny, it downshifts HARD and i am afraid to stay in it to find out if the knock goes away because i don't want to hurt the motor...

i don't think it's false knock because sometimes it will light up really fast all the way to the red leds on the gauge...and if i go part throttle it lights up on the mid ambers...

but for some odd reason on the highway say i am cruising at 60 mph and then press the test button right before i go WOT...there's no knock whatsoever up to 25 lbs of boost!!! so what gives? the chip i am running is a 23-21 degree timing extender chip...motor is stock and so is the intercooler....te-44 turbo and 50's

 

[Razor]

Probably too much timing for the intercooler you have, insufficient alcohol delivery, inproper fuel curve, bad state of tune??? bad plugs??

Do you have a direct scan, if so do a recording and drop it to me to look at..maybe I can make some sense.

Also too much alcohol down low will cuase a condition called Rich knock whereas your O2's go to high 800's..

You have a lot of stuff..need to take some steps back and figure whats going on. A direct scan will let you replay the run overe and over till something makes sense..usually.

Also I assume your running straight denatured rite??

HTH

 

[turbot2112]

im having the same problem, guess ill keep my eye on this thread. are you getting the knock from a roll or from a dead stop , or both.

 

[d0n_3d]

well here's the deal...

my car is properly tuned...it has brand new cr42ts delco plugs gapped at a tight .032"

i did a little test just now...i turned down my boost to 20 lbs max (the wastegate rod is BARELY tugging on the puck arm) i reset the alky to spray on at about 12 lbs of boost and pump speed of 7...fuel pressure was the same at 45 line off

took her for a spin and went WOT from a dead stop and from a 35 mph roll...both times got NO knock...i recorded these runs on turbolink and replayed it...o2s were between 790-820 and again no knock registered...but the thing was my boost took forever to spool up to 20 lbs because the rod is so loose...

i guess what i am gonna do now is go from there and just tighten the rod 1-2 turns and see what happens...if i get knock i will bump up the pump speed 1 notch and turn down the spray on point to 10 lbs...i will see what happens...

 

[d0n_3d]

Originally posted by turbot2112
im having the same problem, guess ill keep my eye on this thread. are you getting the knock from a roll or from a dead stop , or both.

i was getting knock from both...it was really bad when i had extra people in the car for some reason...i was running up to 23-24 psi and the boost would shoot up to that in no time at WOT...that's where i was getting the knock...

btw i am running 100% straight denatured alcohol

 

[turbot2112]

thats what im running. i get some serious knock also. im done tunning for a couple weeks until i get back from vacation. good luck

 

[DMan]

FWIW, the mixture we found the best knock resistance on when using denatured was 50/50. Yes alky does a good job of flash cooling but once its in the cylinder the water takes up more heat. I would suggest getting it as good as you can in the current state, don't mess with pump speed or nozzle size once you've got it, then try a 75/25 alky/water mix, then 50/50. You might be surprised by the results. Keep in mind when you dilute your alky you will need to compensate with a little more fuel to keep your o2s in the same range. By the way, what are your EGTs at WOT?

 

[d0n_3d]

i have no idea what the EGT's are...i don't have a gauge for that

maybe i will try the water mix sometime...

 

[WFO]

i'd be willing to bet it's rich knock.too much alky too soon.

what i do when i'm first starting to tune alky is find out how much boost i can run without alky.for instance i can run 12# on 24º without knock.

once you know how much boost you can run without knock you need to figure out how much alky you need to run in top gear to keep knock away.say you can back your pump speed off to 6 and get a nice lean(fast)pull in top gear...that's where you want to leave it.

now you'll have to determine your turn-on point at your predetermined pump speed.you will probably need to turn the pump on a little earlier than your no knock threshold to let the pump "catch up".

if it turns out that you can't turn the pump on without bogging or getting rich knock you're probably gonna have to turn your boost and pump speed down to a point where your motor can handle it down low.that's the "balance point" that we're all shooting for.

at this point you can also see the clear advantage of a progressive system you can start turning it on earlier without bogging/rich knocking,then ramp it up to whatever she needs in 3rd gear.

clear as mud?

 

[BADDGUY6]

Originally posted by d0n_3d
the chip i am running is a 23-21 degree timing extender chip...

Try turning the base timing down to 18/16 And work your way up from there. I had the same problem. Turned the timing down to 18/16 and tuned SMC for no knock.(Pump speed 6/ Turn on @10#) no knock now. I'm now running 19/17 timing @ 24# boost w/92 octane. I "Think" It has to be either More boost/less timing OR more timing /less boost OR just a little more of each to prevent knock.

 

[d0n_3d]

well i would be adjusting the timing in a second...BUT i don't have that luxury! i have the regular translator box...not the PLUS version...so my timing is preset at 23 degrees in 1st gear and then 21 in the rest...i don't want to send it back to ramchargers and have them charge me 25 bucks just to change the timing because i can't tune an alcohol kit!...

i guess i better keep the boost down...it's at 20 right now...i will TRY to get it up to 21-22 lbs without knock...if i can do that i will be happy i guess...i need to realize that i cannot run in FULL RACE mode on the street even WITH alcohol injection...it's sure as hell better than running only 14-15 lbs of boost on straight 93...

 

[Tom87GN]

Yo Don!

It was nice finally meeting you at the track on Saturday.

Have you tried to turn off your alcohol and run straight 110 octane yet? This will tell you if you have false knock or not.

Also, are you sure that your cam sensor is set correctly? A local guys WE4 was knocking like mad and after a cam sensor adjustment, it went away completely.

Just my .02.

 

[BADDGUY6]

Street chip?

Do you have a Street chip? (92 octane chip) Swap it in and slowly up the boost.

 

[zam70]

sounds like to much timing and to much boost...you'll have to get one of them lower...

 

[Red Regal T]

TRY A DIY ALKY KIT.

 

[d0n_3d]

well well well...i just upped the boost to about 22 lbs and the pump speed is still at 7...fuel pressure at 45 line off still...spray on point is i think 10-12 lbs of boost...i got ZERO knock at WOT...even from a dead stop the tires were squeeling away and nothing registered on the gauge...i will see how long this lasts...i am not gonna touch anything and see if i still continue to get zero knock...

 

[Tom87GN]

Booyaaahhhh!!

You know what all this means, Don? It means you have a classic case of "b!tchy car" just like 90% of turbo regals out there. One minute, she's running fine as can be, the next everything gets turned upside down. Welcome to the group! Just keep your head on straight and don't give up.

 

[d0n_3d]

Re: Booyaaahhhh!!

Originally posted by Tom87GN
You know what all this means, Don? It means you have a classic case of "b!tchy car" just like 90% of turbo regals out there. One minute, she's running fine as can be, the next everything gets turned upside down. Welcome to the group! Just keep your head on straight and don't give up.

thanks tom

yeah my car is quite touchy it seems like...maybe i just had the pump speed on too high or something...WHO KNOWS!

 

[Intercooler]

Without an EGT or wide-band you are pissing in the wind. You can be overfueling it to the max and not know it off of just the O2 sensor. For about $120.00 you can have yourself a nice EGT setup and it will be well worth it.

 

[fast eddie]

Intercooler where can you get an EGT set up for $120?
Ed