Thrust Bearing

[turbojimmy]

Not a lot of good news on the GN this week. Yesterday it was the new PT-51 rendered useless by the blown motor, now this.

Just got off the phone with the guy who has my engine. He said that while the #5 rod bearing was bad, the real problem is that the thrust bearing is bad and it took the crank with it. Now I don’t know exactly what the thrust bearing is or what it does (‘lil help?) but he told me it keeps the crank from moving back and forth and that the damage is likely caused by a bad torque converter (but not necessarily). He recommended getting the TC checked out. I’m not sure how to do that, but I’m not going back to Level10 with it.

I’ve had 3 transmissions and 4 converters in it in the past 12-18 months. I’m not sure which one could have caused the problem – the most recent is the Level10 trans and converter. It’s only been in the car for about 500 miles tops (probably less). How long would it take for a bad converter to take out a thrust bearing? It worked fine.

TIA,
Jim

 

[BJM]

On most engines the thrust bearing is incorporporated into one of the crank main bearings. It has bearing surfaces that extend around the sides of the web into which the crank is sitting. The engine normally would not produce any strong forces that would make the crank move front to back but a transmission problem could certainly do it. Picture the engine running and someone trying to push the crank forward out of the block. The thrust bearing keeps the crank in place axially.

If the torque converter is not installed correctly all the way in it would get squashed between the trannsmission input shaft and the crank. You would definitely damage engine. I am not sure how the torque converter could do it other than poor installation.

 

[Nashty]

If the convertor balloons, the crank will go too. That's what happened to mine. I had an AC 9" N/L that has anti-balloon plates installed. I sent mine to JW Performance in FL (I can get specific address and phone if you wish). They cut it open, replaced some innards (bearing & ???, I'm no tranny expert). I had them install additional balloon plates to the tranny side while they were at it. Total was 275 shipped. It's 75 to cut open and inspect and reweld it shut. I am very satisfied with their work.

Balloon is caused by heat and pressure. If you do alot of brake stall or transbreak (spelling intentional) that can do it. Is the paint flaking off the convertor or burnt? How's the tranny fluid smell?

When you unbolt the convertor, take notice how much free play you have between it and the flywheel. Push the convertor all the way in and then measure that distance. I think you want between 1/8 & 3/16". That is in itself NOT a measure of ballooning though. The convertor has to be checked.

I was told that NOTHING inside the tranny can cause a thrust bearing failure. Make sure your engine builder sets it correctly.

 

[turbojimmy]

Originally posted by Nashty
If the convertor balloons, the crank will go too. That's what happened to mine. I had an AC 9" N/L that has anti-balloon plates installed. I sent mine to JW Performance in FL (I can get specific address and phone if you wish). They cut it open, replaced some innards (bearing & ???, I'm no tranny expert). I had them install additional balloon plates to the tranny side while they were at it. Total was 275 shipped. It's 75 to cut open and inspect and reweld it shut. I am very satisfied with their work.

Balloon is caused by heat and pressure. If you do alot of brake stall or transbreak (spelling intentional) that can do it. Is the paint flaking off the convertor or burnt? How's the tranny fluid smell?

When you unbolt the convertor, take notice how much free play you have between it and the flywheel. Push the convertor all the way in and then measure that distance. I think you want between 1/8 & 3/16". That is in itself NOT a measure of ballooning though. The convertor has to be checked.

I was told that NOTHING inside the tranny can cause a thrust bearing failure. Make sure your engine builder sets it correctly.

I'm thinking it was probably one of the previous converters that did it and it took this long to finally come to a head. In November of '00 I had a really bizzare trans failure. It kind of locked up, but had a nasty vibe. It acted like the TC wasn't letting go - like the engine was directly connected to the trans. I drove it to a few trans shops until it failed completely. Since then, I had two more transmissions fail and put 3 other converters in it. This new Level10 trans and converter seem fine. Fluid was like the day it was put in, converter not heat marked or anything like that.

I'd feel better if there was a way to check the converter - but it looks okay.

Jim

 

[tazgn]

You may want to post this in the trans tech area as well if you haven't already. Bruce from PTS is on there frequently and can answer ANY tranny questions you might have. The ballooning issue has been discussed pretty extensively in there as well. But if you decide you need a new tranny/converter, I would not recommend ANYONE else but Bruce at performance trans. I too went through tranny's and converters, but I got one of his tranny's and billet converters and OMG!!!!!! What a ride!!!!!!!! And from what I've seen, if you can break it, he can fix it after you buy it! I only wish all vendors had his attitude.

Derrick

 

[turbojimmy]

Originally posted by tazgn
You may want to post this in the trans tech area as well if you haven't already. Bruce from PTS is on there frequently and can answer ANY tranny questions you might have. The ballooning issue has been discussed pretty extensively in there as well. But if you decide you need a new tranny/converter, I would not recommend ANYONE else but Bruce at performance trans. I too went through tranny's and converters, but I got one of his tranny's and billet converters and OMG!!!!!! What a ride!!!!!!!! And from what I've seen, if you can break it, he can fix it after you buy it! I only wish all vendors had his attitude.

Derrick

I'd love to give the biz to Bruce, but having close to $5,000 into transmissions for this car in the past year I think (hope) I'm done for now. I want to make sure this one's okay and put the fargin' thing back together. I'm reasonably sure the damage to the thrust bearing began before this converter. When I replaced the oil pan gasket (before the bad noises started), there was metal in the pickup screen then. The converter wasn't in the car very long at that point. Plus, it pushes back away from the flexplate what I would consider a "normal" distance. Not tight at all.....if that matters.

Thanks for the reply,
Jim

 

[turbojimmy]

I got a pic of the front of the TC. It has weird lines across it, but I think (hope?) it's just from when they painted it. There's no corresponding marks on the flexplate.

Whaddya'll think?

http://www.turbojimmy.com/tc_051102.jpg

TIA,
Jim

 

[turbochargedgnx]

level 10

pat builds a good trans...i gotta stick up for him..he built mine and its in back of a stage2 duttweiler...i got it when i lived in clifton nj not far from you...i never want back becaus im in connecrticut out by rhode island...kinda far to drive...he built it and i got the 9" and it works great ! i never needed to go back

something is &%$-up in that pic...fix the gn back to stock stuff...
then let pat build the trans...he does a good job

just sticking up for him he did me very good...and still going after3 years and driving at 25 lbs

see

duttweiler.7h.com

 

[turbojimmy]

Re: level 10

Originally posted by turbochargedgnx
pat builds a good trans...i gotta stick up for him..he built mine and its in back of a stage2 duttweiler...i got it when i lived in clifton nj not far from you...i never want back becaus im in connecrticut out by rhode island...kinda far to drive...he built it and i got the 9" and it works great ! i never needed to go back

something is &%$-up in that pic...fix the gn back to stock stuff...
then let pat build the trans...he does a good job

just sticking up for him he did me very good...and still going after3 years and driving at 25 lbs

see

duttweiler.7h.com

That IS a Level10 built trans and a Level10-provided converter. If there's something f'd up in that picture, it's something Level10 did.

I really need to know how to tell if that converter is bad before I put it behind my new motor. Anyone know how to tell if it's bad?

Thanks,
Jim

 

[turbochargedgnx]

what did pat say? he sticks by his work.

i think its more likely your motor screwed up the trans....you said the motor blew...this will shift the crank to the thrust bearing causing god knows what.

i think i paid $1500 for a complete bomb-proof job AND 9"artcar, he drove it around the road in front of his shop ....he adjusted the tv cable and he hasnt seen it in 3 years and it still takes poundings

he doesnt trash transmissions together...and is a good deal for the money.he found SOOO many cracks and bad parts in my trans i dont know how he made a dime profit....i dont even have a big bad BRF valve body thanks to a trans shop before pat..turns out ARMONDO TRANS in montclair,nj STOLE IT AND SWAPED IN A NON-BRF VALVE BODY...BECAUSE THEY FIGURED I COULD AFFORD TO BE WITHOUT IT AND IT WOULD GO NICELY IN HIS MALIBU...ANYWAY...i love the trans....he fixed hairline cracks in the case that would lower tv pressure,....the fact he fond these cracks in the case is a deatail itself

he was a relief compared to the crap ARMONDO TRANS IN MONTCLAIR, NJ did..some high school friend..the cash i saved was lost (valve body $300)...and

i know your mad and sorry about your gn but i honistly dont think it was caused by level10...wait a second...LEVEL10 IN HAMBURG,NJ ?...did pat build it ?

INSIST PAT BUILD IT.

 

[Buicksx2]

I personally wouldnt let Pat or level 10 work on my lawnmower, I have never had a trans done by pat but I did meet him back in 87 or 88 at Etown. He was walking up and down the staging lanes and he come up to a buddy and myself saying he can get us 1.7 short times with his trans. So I replied wow thats really good except we are getting 1.6's and high 1.5's already. He says whos trans you got in there......we say GM....he then walks away.

Tom you have had good luck and thats great but I have had too many friends go up there and besides the huge cost the work they were not happy with. One buddy just had a motor rebuild and breaks it in then goes to pat for a conv. We then head to the track 2 days later to try out his new motor and after one run we hear this clanging down below, we thought he blew his new motor, well we took off the conv cover only to find out all 3 bolts were not tightened all the way. Ask Jim Testa about his experience with pat and level 10 and Jim Stoltz here and his dipstick.

IMO the only guy who builds them right locally and is worth the drive is Eric Shertz from Long Island.

Guess everyones experience has been different and go with what works for you and you are comfortable with and have fun.

Just mt 2 cents.

 

[turbochargedgnx]

your right....... i have herd of lots of bad words about him...
and dont know what to think.

pat himsef did the work...and the guys he has working for him are...ahh lets say "local help"....and i could see how stupid things could happen...PAT HIMSELF IS GOOD..REAL GOOD !

if you can get pat under the car you should be fine...i just dont see how i could be ok with my trans job and others kill story him.

about 3 years now...i still gotta stick up for that guy

 

[turbojimmy]

Originally posted by turbochargedgnx
what did pat say? he sticks by his work.

i think its more likely your motor screwed up the trans....you said the motor blew...this will shift the crank to the thrust bearing causing god knows what.

The trans is NOT screwed up. Man this thing got weird in a hurry. The point of the post was to figure out if my converter caused the thrust bearing to go bad. Trans and TC work fine. Just looking for advice on how to get the TC checked. Even though the God of All Transmissions built it, I don't want to take a $3,000 gamble and put it behind my new motor. That's all.

I'm not taking it back to Level10. You may have had a good experience with them, I didn't. They put the wrong dipstick back in it and insisted it was right (only after overfilling it by 2 quarts and having it puke fluid all over the bottom of my car did they admit it was wrong). I paid for a 9" converter and got a 10.5". They pushed my car around by the door-mounted mirrors and cracked the paint. I don't feel like I can trust the guy to tell me whether or not the converter is okay or not.

i know your mad and sorry about your gn but i honistly dont think it was caused by level10...wait a second...LEVEL10 IN HAMBURG,NJ ?...did pat build it ?

INSIST PAT BUILD IT.

I'm not mad at anyone. Nothing to be sorry about - something took out the thrust bearing - probably one of 3 TCs I've had in it - not necessarily the Level10 one. I had a nasty trans failure, too, that started this whole thing. I never said the bad thrust bearing was caused by Level10. Level10 built the trans and TC that are in it now and it works GREAT. I just don't want to take a chance that *maybe* the Level10 TC took out my thrust bearing. No finger pointing, no accusations, just want it checked.

Geez......

Jim