Track times on new setup. Help me find my bottleneck!

[JDSfastGN]

What is your suspension setup on the car? Front and Rear.

If you are running a 3.5" MAF with a 3" maf pipe, that definitely is not helping. Lookup on Ebay the seller Earlbrown (also a member of this board) he sells a complete 3.5" MAF pipe kit for like $75 I believe, which is a solid $30-40 cheaper than most other places. Buy that kit and install it. That will remove the most glaring bottleneck that I can see.

I checked it out on Ebay last night. Ill have to send Earl a message and see if he has a pipe with black silicon as the red was all that was there.

Are you able to monitor what your backpressure is on the headers right before the turbo? That is something that I would also have installed. Here is a link to a good, affordable pressure transducer that you can install in your headers. It is $50 for the sensor and the plug/wiring. https://perfecttuning.net/en/accessories/49-pressure-transducer-sensor.html#/15-cable-yes Here is a link for a good stainless steel 1/8" bung to weld onto your headers: https://finishlinefactory.com/product/npt-weld-bung-stainless-steel/

My car was setup for more of a protouring stance and look. The front has QA1 economy coilovers, Howe taller upper and lower ball joints, hollow 36mm sway bar and adjustable SPC uppers. The rear is adjustable UMI uppers, tubular lowers, ATR rear sway bar and some A-body lowering springs. I'm actually pretty satisfied with how the car left and the 60ft despite the suspension not being ideal. It left straight and hard with no tire spin on any pass.
No I am not able to monitor back pressure but I wouldn't be opposed to it, thanks for the links there.

Do you have a pressure transducer to monitor your fuel pressure? You can use that same pressure transducer I posted above for your fuel pressure transducer.

I do have one but haven't installed it yet. Will be in the next couple of weeks to help diagnose the current issue.

If your concern is that the FMIC you have is a bottleneck, I would install this MAP sensor in 2 spots; 1 spot right after the turbo in the pipe going to the intercooler. The 2nd spot in the pipe coming from the intercooler to the throttle body in the same location/ near where you would have your alky nozzles, but do it BEFORE the alky nozzles so that they do not interfere with the reading. This way you can monitor the pressure drop across your intercooler core and see how restrictive it really is. If you are seeing any higher than a 6psi pressure drop, you should consider buying a new core or complete FMIC kit altogether. Here is a link to the MAP sensor I am telling you about: https://perfecttuning.net/en/gauge/323-100-psi-map-sensor-7-bar-18-npt.html#/15-cable-yes now you can also use the pressure transducer I posted above, but you have to remember that the pressure transducer does not factor in the atmospheric pressure, whereas the MAP does. So the pressure transducer might read 34.7psi coming out of the turbo and 30.7psi going into the throttle body. Since the pressure transducer does not take into account the 14.7psi atmospheric pressure, you have to remember that for whatever reading it gives you..so that 34.7psi is really 34.7-14.7=20psi, you follow?

Got it, I have a feeling its restrictive but hopefully i can get something setup to test it out. I do plan on a larger FMIC that has end tanks out of the direct airflow path so it may possible help with cooling of the radiator which probably means an RJC unit.

If you intend on getting a few of the MAP/Pressure Transducers, let me know, I'm a dealer for that company (and the Finish line Factory that sells the NPT Bungs) and I'll help you out on pricing so you don't get hit with such a high cost merely because you're trying to tune your car in a more informed manner.

Just something to keep in mind on a side note, if you're looking for something to not only help you monitor your sensors, but also help reduce the amount of gauges you have, checkout this gauge: https://perfecttuning.net/en/gauge/69-universal-gauge.html It can monitor up to 3 different gauges/inputs along with the battery voltage. You can setup pre-determined alarms for each of the 3 inputs in case your car goes out of what you would deem "safe"- so you can set up the boost pressure input (if you choose to have that as an input) so that if your car makes over 20psi the gauge's alarm will go off, notifying you of this so that you can abort the run and re-tune your boost controller. Same goes for all 3 inputs you have to the gauge. It is a pretty cool gauge that allows you to monitor multiple inputs with just 1 screen, helping to reduce all the clutter of having multiple gauges for monitoring purposes. Plus it has an analog output to connect to something like an external ECU or a Powerlogger (if you have any available analog inputs on the PL left).

Thanks, I have 3 available spots for input on the powerlogger but that gauge is very cool and useful with the alarms.

 

[Mr.Spool]

I expected 105mph 1/8th and 130mph 1/4 at least from 28-29 psi with a billet 6768.

i trapped 137mph with 29psi on a 64/68 with champion irons at 3800lbs.i agree should mph more.when i get more time i will look at the slip and post back

 

[marleyskater420]

I checked it out on Ebay last night. Ill have to send Earl a message and see if he has a pipe with black silicon as the red was all that was there.


My car was setup for more of a protouring stance and look. The front has QA1 economy coilovers, Howe taller upper and lower ball joints, hollow 36mm sway bar and adjustable SPC uppers. The rear is adjustable UMI uppers, tubular lowers, ATR rear sway bar and some A-body lowering springs. I'm actually pretty satisfied with how the car left and the 60ft despite the suspension not being ideal. It left straight and hard with no tire spin on any pass.
No I am not able to monitor back pressure but I wouldn't be opposed to it, thanks for the links there.

I do have one but haven't installed it yet. Will be in the next couple of weeks to help diagnose the current issue.
Got it, I have a feeling its restrictive but hopefully i can get something setup to test it out. I do plan on a larger FMIC that has end tanks out of the direct airflow path so it may possible help with cooling of the radiator which probably means an RJC unit.



Thanks, I have 3 available spots for input on the powerlogger but that gauge is very cool and useful with the alarms.

Did you make your own intercooler piping for the core that you got? Because if you did, I'd recommend buying a Treadstone intercooler core and making your own piping for it.

 

[JDSfastGN]

i trapped 137mph with 29psi on a 64/68 with champion irons at 3800lbs.i agree should mph more.when i get more time i will look at the slip and post back

I would be very curious as well. Do you happen to have the log? I am wondering what you converter slippage is showing.

 

[JDSfastGN]

Did you make your own intercooler piping for the core that you got? Because if you did, I'd recommend buying a Treadstone intercooler core and making your own piping for it.

Yes I did but I would love to get something that is a one piece pipe and possibly 3”. Mine have held for years but they aren’t gonna win any beauty contest.

 

[marleyskater420]

Yes I did but I would love to get something that is a one piece pipe and possibly 3”. Mine have held for years but they aren’t gonna win any beauty contest.

Pretty dont win races.

I'd spend the money on a badass IC core and make your own piping.

 

[ttypewhite]

Here is my view on what I see going on. I think at your level of performance your rear end gear is labouring the car. I would opt for a 3.42 to get the car to 330 quicker. 2nd thing I see is that the converter needs to be loosened up because your not getting the correct rpm drop between shifts. It needs to drop 1000rpm during shifts to put it back in the bulk of it's power band that your not getting. That alone will wake up the car. It would be a good idea to put a gauge on your transmission to check what your line pressure is reading at WOT too. Simple adjustments at the kick down cable can make significant improvements in how your car performs. Lastly I would verify that your timing is where it needs to be. Put a timing gun on the balancer and see what you are reading and make sure that the chip and the balancer read the same. How was your cam installed? Straight up? advance? Check your cam card and see what is recommended. This is a area that is often over looked and very easy to make a error. Your down in my opinion by about 5 to 7 mph provided everything is working properly. Don't focus on your boost level, focus on your tune. Boost is just a number. Get it on the dyno and fine tune what you see going on, make the necessary adjustments, then head back out knowing what direction you can go with as increase boost levels. Don't waste time at 25psi, that turbo needs to be higher to see it shine. Start at 30 and go from there.

 

[JDSfastGN]

Here is my view on what I see going on. I think at your level of performance your rear end gear is labouring the car. I would opt for a 3.42 to get the car to 330 quicker. 2nd thing I see is that the converter needs to be loosened up because your not getting the correct rpm drop between shifts. It needs to drop 1000rpm during shifts to put it back in the bulk of it's power band that your not getting. That alone will wake up the car. It would be a good idea to put a gauge on your transmission to check what your line pressure is reading at WOT too. Simple adjustments at the kick down cable can make significant improvements in how your car performs. Lastly I would verify that your timing is where it needs to be. Put a timing gun on the balancer and see what you are reading and make sure that the chip and the balancer read the same. How was your cam installed? Straight up? advance? Check your cam card and see what is recommended. This is a area that is often over looked and very easy to make a error. Your down in my opinion by about 5 to 7 mph provided everything is working properly. Don't focus on your boost level, focus on your tune. Boost is just a number. Get it on the dyno and fine tune what you see going on, make the necessary adjustments, then head back out knowing what direction you can go with as increase boost levels. Don't waste time at 25psi, that turbo needs to be higher to see it shine. Start at 30 and go from there.

Thanks for the reply! I'll be honest I really really doubt 3.23 is hurting the car, especially the mph but its something I'm going to have to work around if its part of the issue because I really like them on the street and enjoy being able to make a hit to 130 without using OD (on my 25.6" tall 315/35/17 street tires). The car went 104 in the 1/8th years ago in really good weather on the 6776 turbo on the same gear. There are plenty of 10/9 second buicks that run 3.23s or even higher.

I'm assuming you mean tighten up the converter to get more rpm drop? I think its tough to get the converter right when you aren't spinning to 6000+ and maybe the 3.23s compound that. Since i'm around 5500-5600 on the 2-3 shift it seems the engine spends most of the run between 5000-5200 rpm where peak power most likely is... but maybe its not coupling well at that rpm and quite a bit isn't hitting the tires.

Line pressure is good around 275-285 WOT, i build my own 200-4rs and it snaps off the shifts without a hitch and line pressure holds through the run . I just got a pinned governor and KC valvebody in it and on the street from 40-65 rolls it usually shifts around 5750 so i may lighten the governor a bit to try and get close to 6k on the street that would translate into 5800-5850 at the track hopefully. I double checked the timing mark on the balancer and with a light when I assembled the engine. The Cam was degree'd and installed straight up without issue and the cam card didn't recommend advancing to my recollection.

I agree that I'm down about 5-7 mph and I keep coming back to the converter having 14-16% slip at the top end of the track.
I definitely won't be bringing it back below 28 psi once the fuel drop off issue is fixed.
If anybody wants to share powerlogger files and time slips of a mid 10 to high 9 second car so i can compare numbers throughout the run and let me know your converter setup Id be very appreciative.

Thanks again Ttypewhite, I love following your buicks on instagram, those are some bad rides.

 

[murphster]

I agree with your reasoning that the short tires and 3.23s cancel each other out. You are effectively running 27" tires are far as what the engine sees. Now if you were running 28" tires on the 3.23s that would be different, but you are not like you clearly stated multiple times.

I don't think the converter is matched properly to your power level and combo like stated above. Its way too tight... Either you'd need low 9/high 8 sec power to loosen up that converter enough where it works or if you run lower power it will be so tight you'd need a more stockish combo where the powerband is a lot lower (like ttypewhite was getting at above). You can see this on your logs... at the lower power the converter couples up at a lower rpm and is mismatched to your rpm powerband. Compounding this your A/F richen ups and it equates to a crap run. At lower power you should run leaner A/F. As you add more power the converter loosens up and the A/F leans out a little and you get closer to making a better run. The A/F is still a little rich for that power level though. If you were to add more power/boost the converter would loosen up closer to where you need to be and the A/F would probably be closer to where it should be for that power level. So I don't think there is a big issue going on, its just that you have a setup designed for mid 9 or faster power level and its not working very good at that power level.

Something like an 18 blade or 19 blade would work a lot better at the lower power level but may not be ideal at big power levels but would probably work better for you across your power range. Its all a compromise. You want tight cruising rpm so you have a converter that isn't going to work very well with the power level turned down. As far as A/F, this is where aftermarket ecu's like XFI would help as it can scale and adjust the fuel quickly for different power levels automatically. So when you have the power turned down it will raise the target A/F and when you make big power the target A/F will be richer. This helps overcome some of the converter issues when you are running different power levels rather than compounding it like you are seeing.

As far as the fuel blip you saw on the log, that's another issue and like others suggested logging more data will help to see if its an alky, fuel issue or whatever.

 

[ttypewhite]

I'm assuming you mean tighten up the converter to get more rpm drop? I think its tough to get the converter right when you aren't spinning to 6000+ and maybe the 3.23s compound that. Since i'm around 5500-5600 on the 2-3 shift it seems the engine spends most of the run between 5000-5200 rpm where peak power most likely is... but maybe its not coupling well at that rpm and quite a bit isn't hitting the tires.

Out of curiosity, why are you not revving it higher? With a roller cam in there you should be shifting it at 6,400rpm at the very least to benefit from having it in there along with the ported heads you have. You would find that it couples better with rpm. Looks like you have all the right parts to make it sing.

 

[murphster]

And also compounding the problem at the lower power level is your trans is short shifting. You'd probably be fine shifting at 5700-5800 or so. Your 2-3 looks ok but the 1-2 could stand to go higher, judging by the screengrab. My logs on a 224/224 cam showed best results shifting around 5800-5900. I always saw more loss in shifting late going to 6100-6200 rpm vs minimal loss shifting early at 5600 rpm or so. Loss showed up in timeslips and accelerometer logs.

My low 9 sec runs the car rarely went over 6000rpm the whole run. On the stock turbo/engine runs it stayed below 4900rpm the whole run. Same PTC 18 blade converter. All about matching the combo...

 

[JDSfastGN]

I agree with your reasoning that the short tires and 3.23s cancel each other out. You are effectively running 27" tires are far as what the engine sees. Now if you were running 28" tires on the 3.23s that would be different, but you are not like you clearly stated multiple times.

I don't think the converter is matched properly to your power level and combo like stated above. Its way too tight... Either you'd need low 9/high 8 sec power to loosen up that converter enough where it works or if you run lower power it will be so tight you'd need a more stockish combo where the powerband is a lot lower (like ttypewhite was getting at above). You can see this on your logs... at the lower power the converter couples up at a lower rpm and is mismatched to your rpm powerband. Compounding this your A/F richen ups and it equates to a crap run. At lower power you should run leaner A/F. As you add more power the converter loosens up and the A/F leans out a little and you get closer to making a better run. The A/F is still a little rich for that power level though. If you were to add more power/boost the converter would loosen up closer to where you need to be and the A/F would probably be closer to where it should be for that power level. So I don't think there is a big issue going on, its just that you have a setup designed for mid 9 or faster power level and its not working very good at that power level.

Something like an 18 blade or 19 blade would work a lot better at the lower power level but may not be ideal at big power levels but would probably work better for you across your power range. Its all a compromise. You want tight cruising rpm so you have a converter that isn't going to work very well with the power level turned down. As far as A/F, this is where aftermarket ecu's like XFI would help as it can scale and adjust the fuel quickly for different power levels automatically. So when you have the power turned down it will raise the target A/F and when you make big power the target A/F will be richer. This helps overcome some of the converter issues when you are running different power levels rather than compounding it like you are seeing.

As far as the fuel blip you saw on the log, that's another issue and like others suggested logging more data will help to see if its an alky, fuel issue or whatever.

Just to clarify on the track i'm running a 28x9 tire at the track and the a/f stayed a cosistent 10.5-10.6 except for the last run which is my target a/f. I run a Zeitronix WB so maybe its showing incorrect for those looking at the powerlogger files if the wideband is set differently on yours. The BLM is having to work to keep it there though. I am trying to make big power so 10.5-6 has always worked well for me on pump 93 and methanol. I wouldn't dare go leaner at 29 psi. I do think i will get the trans shifting closer to 6k but loosening the converter would seem to only compound the situation that i have a "tighter" converter thats still slipping 18% at the top of 2nd and 15% at the end of the run in 3rd or am I looking at this wrong?

 

[JDSfastGN]

Out of curiosity, why are you not revving it higher? With a roller cam in there you should be shifting it at 6,400rpm at the very least to benefit from having it in there along with the ported heads you have. You would find that it couples better with rpm. Looks like you have all the right parts to make it sing.

With Iron heads and a mild roller cam I had never seen gains revving it that high. I was hoping it would shift around 5800 on these passes. On the street from a roll it usually shifts 5700 1-2 and 5800 2-3 so being on the 28s and launching hard with the converter flashing to 4400 must have effected the governor/driveshaft speed enough to cause the early shifts. If it had aluminum heads id be all over the 6400 shift point though. I suspect this combo peaks power at 5300 or so and holds till 5600 before it falls off but getting an accurate dyno on a buick down here seems pretty difficult.

 

[murphster]

Sorry about that... kept seeing the short tires and thought you ran those. What is your car weight? The 3.23s are probably hurting at that power level but will even be worse at heavier weights.

And as far as A/F, its more about where your power level is than what boost. I've run low 10 runs at 11.0 A/F on alky. May not be as safe, but its not like its going to blow up immediately. 10.5-10.6 is ok to shoot for, but for a high 10 sec run that's a little rich. I ran low 9s at that A/F. Just saying that its another thing that could be hurting you a little on top of everything, but always good to be safe and build the power up than vice versa.

 

[JDSfastGN]

Sorry about that... kept seeing the short tires and thought you ran those. What is your car weight? The 3.23s are probably hurting at that power level but will even be worse at heavier weights.

And as far as A/F, its more about where your power level is than what boost. I've run low 10 runs at 11.0 A/F on alky. May not be as safe, but its not like its going to blow up immediately. 10.5-10.6 is ok to shoot for, but for a high 10 sec run that's a little rich. I ran low 9s at that A/F. Just saying that its another thing that could be hurting you a little on top of everything, but always good to be safe and build the power up than vice versa.

The car was 3750 on the scales with me in it (Im 200) so its no feather weight. I was shooting for 10.5 a/f since i was counting on alky for quite a bit of fueling (dual nozzle) Had it been a single nozzle with less percentage of my fueling coming from the alky I probably would have leaned it out since my overall stoich would have been higher.

I will say this is my first trip on the dual nozzle and i picked up every time i turned it down but didn't get a chance to try it out even lower than 5.5 setting due to the random leanout on my last pass (and I was nervous to lose too much octane at this boost level)

 

[murphster]

As far as slippage up top and down low, two different things we are talking about. You want a converter that matches the rpms you are shifting at and couples where you want it to in order to maximize acceleration. Then ideally it will also couple up top good. Not sure why yours is not coupling good up top, could be something with the 16 blade where it needs more power to couple efficiently up top. My 18 blade slipped only 5% at 145mph and 6000rpm and was only a couple percent looser at 4900rpm and 118mph on the stock setup.

 

[JDSfastGN]

As far as slippage up top and down low, two different things we are talking about. You want a converter that matches the rpms you are shifting at and couples where you want it to in order to maximize acceleration. Then ideally it will also couple up top good. Not sure why yours is not coupling good up top, could be something with the 16 blade where it needs more power to couple efficiently up top. My 18 blade slipped only 5% at 145mph and 6000rpm and was only a couple percent looser at 4900rpm and 118mph on the stock setup.

Yeah that’s what’s bothering me most. Id imagine a 6k shift at a later mph may drop the rpm down closer to 5200 rather than 5000 and help accelerate the car quicker in 2nd and 3rd and begin to couple quicker up top having started at a better rpm/power in each gear but I still feel like 5700 in 3rd is excessive for the current combo and mph. I will talk to Dusty and see what he says. They have adjusted it a few times and even added a sprag to help it couple but maybe its time to try and adjust the combo to match the converter a bit better rather than expecting the converter to do something it can’t do at this lower rpm/power.

 

[murphster]

The car was 3750 on the scales with me in it (Im 200) so its no feather weight. I was shooting for 10.5 a/f since i was counting on alky for quite a bit of fueling (dual nozzle) Had it been a single nozzle with less percentage of my fueling coming from the alky I probably would have leaned it out since my overall stoich would have been higher.

I will say this is my first trip on the dual nozzle and i picked up every time i turned it down but didn't get a chance to try it out even lower than 5.5 setting due to the random leanout on my last pass (and I was nervous to lose too much octane at this boost level)

You picked up because you were leaning out your A/F, not because you were running too much alky. May have helped correct a rich condition down low too. I ran 3 alky nozzles maxed out on my stock turbo runs. My theory is you can't have too much alky, only too little. Dual nozzles or more is hard to tune on a stock ecu type setup, especially when adjusting boost, etc. What works on the street may not work at the track and vice versa. Knowing your boost and alky curve can help transition it in smooth but you really need the tester and/or alky pressure logger to get it dialed in right. Tuning for the track it easier as you are full boost and alky almost the whole run but it may not work so well on the street adjusting for the alky on and off throttle a lot. Again, this is where aftermarket ecu works well as you can tune it for the track and its fast enough to make up for the varying conditions on the street.

At that weight, the 28" tires, 3.23 gears and tight converter are all working against you. You still managed decent numbers but until you turn it up even more your numbers will probably be on the low side.

 

[murphster]

Yeah that’s what’s bothering me most. Id imagine a 6k shift at a later mph may drop the rpm down closer to 5200 rather than 5000 and help accelerate the.....

If you shift at 6000 it will still drop to 5000 if you are making the same power. You probably want to shift at 5700-6000 and drop to 5200-5300 I would guess. Manual shifter could help you shift higher and easy fix. Only way to increase the rpm after the shift is either to increase power on the current converter or go to a looser converter at the same power level.

 

[JDSfastGN]

You picked up because you were leaning out your A/F, not because you were running too much alky. May have helped correct a rich condition down low too. I ran 3 alky nozzles maxed out on my stock turbo runs. My theory is you can't have too much alky, only too little. Dual nozzles or more is hard to tune on a stock ecu type setup, especially when adjusting boost, etc. What works on the street may not work at the track and vice versa. Knowing your boost and alky curve can help transition it in smooth but you really need the tester and/or alky pressure logger to get it dialed in right. Tuning for the track it easier as you are full boost and alky almost the whole run but it may not work so well on the street adjusting for the alky on and off throttle a lot. Again, this is where aftermarket ecu works well as you can tune it for the track and its fast enough to make up for the varying conditions on the street.

At that weight, the 28" tires, 3.23 gears and tight converter are all working against you. You still managed decent numbers but until you turn it up even more your numbers will probably be on the low side.

Its a wideband tracking chip so removing or adding alky only removes or adds the proper fuel to compensate and keep the same a/f i have targeted. It was 10.5-10.6 on all the passes except the one labled 10.955 when the BLM pegged 170 and the chip was maxed out so it leaned out to 10.8. My car has always been a weird one and doesn't like tons of alky. It will begin to surge and I always ran less than others with similar combos I could compare to.