Trying Straight H2O

[6SENSE]

After trying different mixtures/settings etc with the alky/h2o injection over the years, I have never been able to really utilize it like I wanted/or should. Part of the reason is that I had been chasing down other problems and so I would usually leave the alky turned off. Yesterday I finally remembered why I put the kit together in the first place....... to serve as an intercooler (remember this is a Hotair car). I went ahead and filled the tank with straight distilled h2o, installed the largest jet I had (.040), and hit the streets. Not sure why I went with that jet since I had usually used a smaller one before with the alky(.025 I think), but something just made me do it. I think I was wondering if my thinking was all wrong in the past with the smaller jet and that atomization would actually be better with a larger one. Anyway, turn on was lower than I meant to set it, at 8psi, but to my surprise I had relatively no bogging issues. The car ran great. I adjusted the turn on up a bit to 10-11psi and later on hit the highway with Tlink.
I made three runs, punching it from about 50-90mph. Keep in mind just a few days ago I was having trouble running over 15psi w/o 4-8deg KR. Also note* that boost amts are from Tlink and may actually be 1.5~psi greater (according to vdo gauge). readings are in 3rd gear (43psi FP, 93oct).

1st run:max boost hit 15.6psi* w/ 777 O2s & 0 KR
2nd run: FUSE BLEW FOR PUMP AND DIDNT KNOW!! (apparently wasnt using high enough amp fuse). I had turned the boost up 1 full turn on the WG for this run since I had no KR on 1st run. Max boost hit 14.8psi* w/ 812 O2s & 4 deg KR
3rd run: FIXED FUSE ISSUE WITH H2O INJ. Went ahead and turned boost up 1 more full turn on WG. Max boost was 18.2psi* w/ 762 O2s & 2deg KR (most of the run was 0 KR)

Okay, the H2O is definately working as a intercooler for me (right?). I was able to successfully run at least 5lbs more boost than a few days ago without KR. The issue with the fuse blowing was not a bad thing for testing either. Notice on that run that I turned the boost up but the #s went down 1~ psi from the previous run! So, the air charge must be more cool/dense with the H2O, right?

I also noticed that with the H2O, although KR was not an issue, the O2 #s went down . Also, during the run w/o injection the car felt like it was hauling ass a bit more than the other two runs. On all three runs I was WOT for about 8 frames on Tlink. On the H2O injection runs MPH was around 90 in the 8th frame, while the injection-less run was at 98 mph in the 8th frame! These are the issues that concern me, and would like to have some insight on. I feel that I am definately getting somewhere here. I could up the turn on point higher, but not sure its a big deal or not. + wouldnt it be a benefit if I could keep it coming on early to actually work as a intercooler? I could also try dropping the jet size down to .035. Or, is this the time to start adding alky back in, maybe 25% to 40% to start. I was thinking of trying Methanol this time around if it comes to that. Maybe I should dial more boost in? Fuel pressure?
The effects that H2O alone are having is kind of intriguing me though (the fact that it is cheap aint bad too). I was hitting the car up this morning on my way to work and hit 20psi boost w/ no signs of KR.
Thanks for any help or insight you guys can offer.

P.S. Just wanted to note that the pump Im using is a F150 inline pump (90psi rating), and sorry for such a long post guys!

 

[Red Regal T]

You say you have used different mixes of alky and water with no positive results. Now with the water only, showing you an improvement, seems you may be on to something. I have used alky and water, now, methanol and water for over 3 years. I never used a lubricant. Never had a problem. Just my experience.

 

[blackbuick87]

Good to see someone willing to experiment. Lets get your alcohol system up to snuff first. Since you have a hot air, you are a PERFECT candidate to hook up the POWER INJECTION light in your dash to your alky system. This way you will know when the pump is running. You probably have the bulb in the dash already. It only takes an hour, here is how you do it:

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=77303

OK, next I would recommend a Casper's audible knock detector, available at www.Casperselectronics.com
These will keep your engine happy and safe while dialing in your system for MAX performance, instead of blowing a HG like I did while testing (bad alky switch)

Finally you need a way to gauge performance. Turbolink is one way, but a Gtech Pro is what I use. They are amazingly consistent, if not 100% accurate.




Now running straight water will require a smaller jet than alcohol, I think that is why your car is slower with the water on. You are
pumping in too much. Time has proven that a water/alky mix provides the best combination of drivability and knock suppression. Str8 water and a single nozzle setup usually do not go well together. I suggest trying 100% denatured alcohol at the same settings as your 100% water run, and log the results. Let me know if it runs better

 

[Turbo__Tim]

I'll second what blackbuick87 has said agreeing on all points. Further it is great to see someone is willing to experiment, and keep us advised of his progress.

I'm not suprised to see the 98-90 mph data. More boost doesn't mean more power, and you are surely drowning the spark, or lowering the cylinder temps to a point where detonation is not complete.

I'm not suprised to see the 0-2 numbers since the steam is displacing the oxygen that would normally be in the exhaust. You are not the first person to report this...

An egt guage would be a better indicator as you progress, tho a knock guage offers great protection but without predicting the onset of high temps that will cause knock. Using an egt gives you an opportunity to get out of the throttle before knock begins IMO.

In my humble opinion you will not get straight water to work unless you inject it pre-turbo. I wouldn't reccomend trying this since nobody has reported back doing this without damage to the blades. (this is curious the not hearing about people trying this because I know it has been tried. Maybe nobody wants to look like a spanked a$$ by coming on and saying "hey don't try this, I blew my turbo up!!"). Anyway the way straight water will work is through a high pressure pump, and small, and possibly multiple jets.

Maybe start with a 70-30 alchy-water mix, with as small a jet as you jhave, and delay the turn-on as long as possible? Sneak some water in from there? I don't know, but that is whewre I'd start..

 

[blackbuick87]

It can work without going pre-turbo, just not with a single nozzle setup. You would need better jets, 3-5 nozzles and a staged system though

 

[6SENSE]

Thanks for the input guys. I was hoping there would be some interest.

blackbuick87:
1. thanks for the power injection light suggestion. However I actually already set my system up like that a couple years ago. I initially had the power injection light to light up whenever the pump was triggered. I later changed it to my current setup which has it light up whenever I flip an "On" switch (I installed under the dash) to show power to the system. Next to my boost gauge on the "A" pillar I drilled a hole in the gauge pod and inserted a light which lights up whenever the pump is triggered. With this setup, not only does it look good, but it lets me know that I have power to the entire system (this is how I knew that the fuse blew, because the "power injection" light was not lit), as well as lets me know when the pump is actually on. With the "pump on" light right beside the boost gauge it is easy for me to see WHEN it is actually coming on aswell.
2. As far as the Casper's audible KR sensor. Yep! Ive got that ubnoxious beeping thing too. Ive always said that if nothing else one should have one of these. Its too cheap and too easy to use.
3. As far as the GTech. Its funny you mentioned that. Im actually glad to hear someone recommend it. Yep, got one of those too. Its in my glove compartment. Its been sitting there for awhile.
4. I put in the .035 jet today but was not able to make a recorded run yet. I would like to try a .30 but dont have one. My next one down is a .025 (and then a .020) which I think may be too small. I was not having good results with this jet and 70/30 alky/h2o or 50/50 alky/water. Turn on had to be late (over 15psi) or it would bog. I remember reading somewhere not to use any nozzles lower than a .028 as they would not fan the spray as effectively. Hey, thats the funny thing, STRAIGHT WATER IS NOT CAUSING THE ENGINE TO BOG! I set the turn on as low as 6psi today and it did not bog at all! I have used iso and denatured but not at 100%. I will try the 100% denatured when I get a chance and see what happens. I actually,after some reading, have been a little inclined to try methanol as well, but this straight water has caught my attention. I feel like Im on to something (with my car anyway) starting with 100% water, and then adding alky to it if needed. Instead of the other way around.
I have been interested in at least a dual nozzle setup for sometime now but have not tried anything yet. My current nozzle is installed right after the turbo in the intake to turbo adaptor (not sure how familiar you guys are with the 84-85 setup) spraying towards the turbo. I was thinking of installing two nozzles in the same spot, but facing each other. Maybe aquamist nozzles? I know I cant stick with the NOS nozzle for ever. I dont really like the way it sticks out so far in the air stream. I dont know if it could be causing any kind of air flow problem or not. I am definately open to suggestions with the nozzle quantity and placement situation. Let me point out that my intake is not a stock hotair intake. Its a completely ported and open plenum piece. If it still had the split down the middle I could see having a nozzle on either side of the intake, but with mine I thought it made just as much sense to have them in the air inlet at the back. LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU GUYS THINK.

Turbo_Tim:
I think I already hit on alot of your points above.
1. With regards to drowning spark. I am using NGK UR5s gapped at a tight .032.
2. A EGT gauge would be nice to have!
3. When I first put together my alky injection a few years back, I installed the nozzle pre-turbo. However, I chickened out because I did not trust the effect it would have on the turbo blades, and so I moved it.


Okay, water is not really causing a bogging issue. The idea of having water injection when boost comes on (or at low boost) to work as a intercooler sounds pretty cool. With the idea of not letting the air charge get so hot, and then trying to cool it down at the last minute (high boost). How about a multi nozzle setup that would have water come in early then a alky mix come in later on?

 

[Turbo__Tim]

That's interesting that the water does not bog you down at lower temps, tho actually doing what you want (i.e. water for half the run, alchy for the second half) would involve some electronics I'm not familiar with. Not to mention the second pump. (maybe a windshield pump just for the water?) You could manually activate that set-up, and release it seperately from the alchy system now in place.

You have some interesting theorys there, but this is getting kinda complicated.

I'm starting to believe that the PAC system would address the delivery issue quite well. After all why should we axpect a continous spray to work well when we delay turn on points to avoid running too rich on the top end. The pac would trim the alchy volume back until high boost is reached.

An even better system would involve using a pulsing solenoid that is tied to an injector pulse (aquamist has one) so the end result is the higher the rpms, the more alchy is delivered, lower rpms, less alchy. This would avoid the bogg that occurs when the rpm's drop at the first and second shift.

Oh well just some thoughts. In your situation 2 stage, pure denatured seems to be the answer for now. The engine will digest that mix quite well, not flooding on the shifts as bad as with straight water.

Just throwing some stuff out there. I'm not always right, and we all have much to learn esp. when it comes to injecting these hot airs..

 

[6SENSE]

What about a system that would increase pump speed as boost increases? So that at lower boost/rpms the engine wont be getting flooded by h2o/alky, but will still be benefiting from its cooling affect. As boost/rpm rise the pump will speed up aswell, in an effort to keep a BALANCE between what the engine is doing and what the "power injection" is trying to do. Ever since I heard about the SMC kits, which have variable pump speeds, I thought about hooking my pump up to do the same thing. Not sure if Im correct, but dont you accomplish this through the ground, controlling its intensity(voltage flow) as with a dial switch? Just like those dial light switches in a home?
Now, once that capability is verified there should be a way to accomplish what Im talking about through the hobbs switch and perhaps another component. Im sure there is a better way, but if you were to incorporate 2 pump speeds I could see having 2 hobbs switches. 1 would trigger at a low boost setting and go through some sort of solenoid witch would trigger the pump running at a lower speed. The other hobbs switch would be the opposite, trigger at a higher boost setting and cause the pump to run at higher/max output.

P.S. dont mean to sound dumb, maybe still tired, but what is PAC.

 

[blackbuick87]

Originally posted by 6SENSE
What about a system that would increase pump speed as boost increases? So that at lower boost/rpms the engine wont be getting flooded by h2o/alky, but will still be benefiting from its cooling affect. As boost/rpm rise the pump will speed up aswell, in an effort to keep a BALANCE between what the engine is doing and what the "power injection" is trying to do..

That is what a PAC does. Read this thread:

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80360

I still dont see anywhere where you have tried 100% denatured. You need to do that as part of your data logging, and you might be surprised by the results.

You say the water does not cause any bogging. Maybe not at the turn on point, but it is killing your top end apparently. This is where the alcohol kicks in, and makes the mix burnable. I am not convinced that straight water is best for your situation.

See I had the same problem a month ago, running a .036 jet with a 60/40 alky mix my car had zero knock, but would stop pulling at 110mph (4th gear shift). I mean it would STOP.
Dropped to a .028 jet for warmer weather and now it pulls hard past 125mph (I dont have the balls to go any faster)

Water seems to be doing the same to yours. When the car shifts to 3rd and the PROM drops your timing, the water is too much and killing your EGT's I suspect. I think you need more boost, timing, or less water at top end

 

[Turbo__Tim]

I agree with that also.
There is another way to activate the pump (or solenoids)at different rmps. Rpm switches from either Jegs, or summit. Very expensive tho. They simply alllow you to turn on, and turn off at different rpm levels. Works off the timing pulse. I would hope they work well with our ignition systems, unlike some tachometers. Kinda expensive tho....

To repeat, this would allow the alchy to activate at high rmps where the timing is advanced enough to start the burn. It would shut off immediately after the shift. Hopefully the heat level would be ok until the rpms build back up, the timing advances, and the alchy begins to spray again.

Personally I like the idea of the pulsing solenoid. More linear. This is already in use with the Aquamist injection kit. It is strictly water. I'm seriously considering ordering one since I'm already set up with their nozzles, and 10 mm plastic line. If memory serves I believe they are about $125.

Comming up, maybe, water and propane?...

 

[Turbo__Tim]

I ordered a high speed solenoid from:

George's Imports, Ltd.
8011 State Line Road
Kansas City MO 64114
816-333-6582

Now it's expensive, like $174, and he claime that it will handle only 2 of the 1 mm nozzles. (I am running 3 nozzles at the present time, 2 stage) I'm not sure what configuration In will run them. He suggested using them for the first stage, but I'm thinking that if I go to water I'll try using one nozzle for each stage, and pulse both nozzles. Since it takes only half as much water to cool as alchy this should work about right.

6SENSE, if this works I owe it to you for the idea. If it doesn't work you are in the dog house, and I'm out $174

BTW the reason I'm doing this is because tho I was able to get 23 psi with the 2 stage, I was loosing power. If this works, it will be good news to the other member on the board (sorry I forgot your name) that was runing alum heads and having the same problems I was having- flooding, bog, loss of power etc..

What the heck, sometoimes you just have to roll the dice, and see what happens. lets hope the theory behind this is solid...

BTW it's called a speed valve. It can be used with methanol, and the methanol will work with the plastic lines. Read : plastic lines. Might work, I'm not sure I would trust them not to break. They do become brittle from engine compartment heat...

 

[6SENSE]

Originally posted by Turbo__Tim
6SENSE, if this works I owe it to you for the idea. If it doesn't work you are in the dog house, and I'm out $174

I spoke to the guy at George's Imports about a year ago (forgot his name). He had recommended that I went with (2) 1mm nozzles and straight water. The (2) nozzles would be positioned (as I think I mentioned in a previous post) right after the turbo facing each other.
With this configuration, Ive been thinking. What if I had one injecting h2o and the other alky. The water would come on first and then the alky would be introduced later (after 15psi?). This would give the benefit I have seen of straight water, aswell as the benefit of a alky/h20 mix where it is needed, for topend. The topend/WOT O2 #s should go back up and hopefully power as well, while all along accomplishing what I initially set out to do.......cool the aircharge, more efficiently than an intercooler.

What exactly is the speed valve supposed to do now? What did the guy from George's have to say about the whole idea? I remember him as being very knowledgeable about the whole h2o/alky injection deal. I remember him telling me about a twin turbo Lingenfelter Vette that he installed (4) nozzles on, that sounded pretty cool.

 

[6SENSE]

Hey, also, almost forgot. Picturing the scenario I mentioned above, how would I get the water to cut out at a designated time... Hmmm. Straight water, then water/alky mix, then straight alky (dentured?) for the HIGH boost. Dont they make Hobbs switches (for NOS) that work the opposite of what we use? It could be placed in line to cut off power to the water pump at the designated boost point.
Does any of this sound like a good idea? I guess what Im getting at is to incorporate all the good effects from the different fluid combos that weve learned about, all into one system

 

[Turbo__Tim]

A speede valve is a device that pulses with the injectors. The faster the injector pulse, the faster the alchy delivery. If you have been following the discussion that Blackbuick have been having, we think the drowning of the spark comes al shift changes when the rpms drop, but the spray continues at the the same rate. It is at thei point that flooding (the biggest problem with alchy injection) begins when the timing is backed off for low rpms, but the alchy spray remains the same. It is at this point flooding begins, and once started doesn't stop.

By using the speed valve the alchy delivery is cut srort when the timing decreases (at shift change, and lowered rpms) and resumes when timing is advanced enough to digest the alchy. Actually many people correct this problem by running very high timing throught, making sure the alchy wil have time to ignite. I don't like this approach...

Blackbuick87 do you agree with what I am saying? Is there anything you need to add?

Ok then sit tight, give me a week, and I will let you know how this works out. Differentf mixes aren't needed IMO, just a better, more 'linear' delivery system...

 

[blackbuick87]

I sort of agree but I think you are mixing injector timing with ignition timing, and of course they are not the same thing.
The speed valve thing has me kind of lost, which is why I havent really mentioned it.

How does this speed valve read the injector timing? Using injector timing to trigger alky flow is an interesting idea, but I would talk to Bruce Plecan about it. He seems to understand pulsewidths and duty cycles as well as anyone

 

[6SENSE]

Bob, picked up some denatured today. I will experiment with it like you suggested (100%) as soon as I get a chance, or the weather gives me a chance. I guess I'll probably have to set the turn on a little higher with it (13-15psi?).

Tim, hows that speed valve working out?

 

[Turbo__Tim]

6SENSE, delay the turnon point al long as possible. Run the lowest pump speed you can. Just enough to get the job done. No need to go crazy, 20-21 psi is fine for the street.

Still waiting for the speed valve to get here. This may take a while because I'm going for water injection only. I see a few problems, limitations already, so it will take some time. I'll post any progress...

 

[6SENSE]

Thanks for the tip. Only problem is this is a homemade kit. I dont have it set up where I can adjust the pump speed. Maybe that would help me with tuning the alky in, huh? My pump is a F150 inline pump. I think its 90 psi. + Ive got a vac line running to the top of my reservoir (metal tank) which pressurizes it with boost. I had always thought that moving the fluid fast was good for atomization. Im sure its got to be pretty simple to add some sort of a dial to adjust voltage/pump speed. Maybe something at Radio Shack?
Keep us posted on the speed valve. Hope you find the straight water as interesting as I did. I was trying to run the water out of my tank today when I was driving. I know it may be making the topend suffer a bit (in its present tune), but its funny how I can set the turn on so low (3psi today!) and the bogging is minimal. Its weird, the only bogging/stutter I really notice is after Ive hit it up, and then start to get back on the pedal to drive normal. Its only a split second that I feel it, then its gone. Its almost like a pocket of water stays in the cylinders for a second . I know one thing, I feel a sense of safety driving with the water injection coming on. Especially coming on early, where I know that the air charge is cooled drastically, before the turbo has had a chance to heat things up first. From my testing I have a sense of how much of a affect it had on reducing air charge temps/KR.

 

[Turbo__Tim]

Pump speed, Hmmm, would a dimmer switch work? Or maybe a reostat ? Maybe someone else has the answer.

Yes IMO, full pump speed is what is needed, as well as smaller jets. Full pump speed, and several small jets that together deliver about a third of an ounce per second would be the best.

I don't know why but my alum heads hate alchy injection. Though I was able to fun 25+ psi with stock, unported heads, 18 psi, and stuttering at that was the best I could do with the alum.

To combat this I went 2 stage, with 3 smaller jets. Now I can manage 22 psi, at one-quarter pump speed, still floods the spark a bit. Like you, I can feel the bogging which is water pooling in the cylinders.

If atomization is key, then timing is the second key. Since the addition of alchy raises the octane, the slowed flame front needs more time to burn. The guys that are running 28 psi are running 26-28 degrees timing to burn a 50-50 mix. that is one way to elliminate flooding.

Another way (what I'm trying) is to limit the amount of alchy that gets into the cylinders when timing is low. (at the shifts). You have fully advanced timing in first gear so you don't begin to see a problem until the shift when the load increases, and the timing decreases. The best thing that could happen would be to stop the alchy flow altogether during the shift, and resume at some rpm point beyond where the high timing can begin digesting the mix again.

An alternative to this would be to use the rpm swithches from jegs or summit and not allow tha alchy to acyivate until say 3500 rpms when again the timing is at the levels needed.

In your case, I would suggest the small Aquamist nozzles. Using (2) .8 mm nozzles should allow you to use pure denatured at full pump speed. You will need a 'Y' and an adapter to your present output line. If that is not enough, then begin to dillute the mix with water until you get the best performance.

Just a suggestion.

 

[blackbuick87]

I have the same pump as 6SENSE, a non adjustable inline pump. It should be fine for now. I would avoid any dimmer switches and the like for now, because you dont need any more variables. Besides high pump speed can mean better atomization