Using an 87 Lower intake on a Hot-Air.........

[TurboRegal84]

I remember seeing a few pics a while back of someone who put and 87 style intake on a Hot-Air....

Looking at the stock 84/85 intake...its hard to make it flow enough air...its just not thought out well....but the 86/87 is a nice design........soooooo

I am in the process of working things out for my car with a bunch of the guys over at Mease Performance....I just have a few questions....


Will the 87 Intake just bolt right up?

We are going to make an adapter that makes it so the Dog house on the 86/87 can be rotated 180 degrees, and make a spout on the front of it so that the air can go from the turbo..right into the dog house with a simple hose clamp.

Other then at is the water neck in the same location?

Heater lines can be ran like the stock intake?


Pics, thoughts, and Ideas are welcome!

 

[Rob_85Ttype]

If I hadn't decided to convert my hotair to 86-87 intercooled, I was going to take this route in modding my hotair. I think that it will work great. FJM568 was the one who did this first.

The ports for the heater hose and sensors are in basically the same locations, plus or minus a few fractions of an inch. The port for the heater hose is angled down more on the 86-87 intake, maybe causing the need for custom heater pipes. I saw an 87 GN at a race not too long ago that replaced his hard pipe setup with a combination of linked 86-87 heater core hoses, so I don't think making something custom totally from rubber will be difficult at all. The 84-85 turbo bracket/heatshield will connect attach to the 86-87 intake.

If I had done it, I would have made an upper plenum similar to the 86-87, but one that would have allowed the proper clearance for the turbo. Rotate the turbo as you said, and add an intercooler if you want it. It sounds to me like you want to run your turbo straight into the intake (similar to the hotair setup) and keep the TB on the turbo, correct?

If you are a good talker, you might convince Keith to come up with a 3" DP with integral wastegate for 84-85 as he has for an affordable alternative to the other DPs of this type for the 86-87 configuration.

 

[FJM568]

It won't work Herb...

I'm the one with the lower 87 intake on my "stock" hotair setup...

There isn't enough room with the turbo on the top of the motor to use the upper doghouse turned around(if even possible)...The only way it could be done is by using TurboMotion's modified intake for the hotair setup(I forget the number) and still be hotair...

I'm a machinist and I couldn't get it to work like you're thinking...

As I've posted before, I wouldn't even attempt to do what I did again...I would just buy the TurboMotion setup and be done with it...It's a well thought out system...Plus, it actually flows more air than the stock 86/7 intake when Jay gets done with it...There is just too many little problems that I also ran into while doing it the way I did...

And no, the water neck is not in the same location, kind of...It's just different and a headache to work around...nothing fits the same anymore...all kinds of little problems to figure out...

The compressor outlet on the turbo sits too far forward to be able to go down into the intake...

You would be money ahead to buy the Turbomotion setup...I'm a machinist and fabricated everything on my own time...to do what I did would cost some $$$ and also work out all the bugs(tuning problems involved in a completely different intake design)...

Hope this helps some...

Here's a pic...

 

[FJM568]

And one of my TH style DP(link below)...

which is another thing...It's a 3"...If you think changing plugs is hard with the stock DP in the way...YOU DO NOT WANT 3" pipe there...just pulling plug wires is a pita...

I would go 2 3/4" at the biggest and even then you're gonna have a h*lluva time...

The other thing...I would not run anything other than metal pipe for the heater core lines along the motor...They run right underneath the turbo and it would flat out cook the rubber hoses right there...Think back to Nick's plug wires on his car when he got it back from being stolen...

And the turbo bracket/heatshield also had to be modified some...This setup throws the uppipe and DP alignment off which actually, next to fabricating the custom upper plenum, is the biggest headache I have with it...And I even had the luxury of doing all this while the motor was out of the car and on the engine stand...In the car, forget it...too much time...

Any more questions...

 

[TurboRegal84]

Jim....thanks for all of the pics....


Instead of added an intercooler I am thinking about just having the Turbo "shoot" the air into a sheet metal box that will be on the top of the intake....so it will kinda be like the dog house...but not quite...Custom.

Think it can work?

This will leave the whole front of the intake open, and most of the sides because I am not adding an Intercooler...I want to keep it Hot-Air..but I just want to flow more air!


I spoke with Keith and a few of his guys about adding a TH style Downpipe to my car..and he said that it might work...but It would take some $....maybe down the road I can give him my 3" Downpipe to cut apart and use his skills to make a Mease 3" Downpipe for Hot-Airs?!

But...for right now...I am trying to get the best form of an Intake..using the Hot-Air set up.

If I cannot use the 87 Intake...does anyone know how to Port out the stock 84/85 intake to flow air like a mofo? where to cut? what to grind?

Thanks!

 

[FJM568]

As I've said...

The compressor outlet of the turbo sits to far forward to be able to get air down into the intake properly...The only way to do it is with one of TurboMotion's modified intakes...Jay's got one that uses a gutted 84/5 intake and then has like a tube that goes forward, then curves around and goes straight back to meet up with the compressor outlet on the turbo...That is the only way to do it...

The other problem with my setup is the way it idles...I've got that funky idle that everyone who intercools the hotairs and keeps the throttle body mounted on the turbo complains about...The only way to solve that is by relocating the throttle body to the intake...But it would not be a problem if your motor remains hotair...

The plenum on the 86/7 intakes sits too far back to be of any use for running just hotair and almost too far back for the way I have it set up running a FM...

You will need to gut the stock 84/5 intake and modify it to do what you want it to do...But in the end, you will find that it will be easier and cheaper just to buy a TurboMotion hotair intake...

LISTEN TO ME....using the 86/7 intake will offset your turbo heatshield/bracket far enough to throw your uppipe and DP connections out of whack...As I said in the previous posts, next to all the fabrication I've had to do to MAKE it fit, this was one of the biggest headaches I've had doing my setup...Being a machinist, all my labor making the custom parts was free...IT WILL COST YOU $$$$$$$$$$ to have someone else do it...It is a trial and error type of deal...Trust me, machine shop labor is not cheap...

TurboMotion's setup is a plug and play deal...not much head scratching and fabrication involved on your end...Plus the ports are all flow matched and does flow alot better than an untouched stock 86/7 lower...

But if you do decide to do this, good luck and don't say that I didn't warn ya...

edit...
Here, try this link...It shows TM's V3 hotair intake...
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18790&highlight=v3

And btw, you made a post farther down in that link!!!

 

[TurboRegal84]

Hrmm...Maybe I will just scratch the whole Idea, and mildly port and polish the ports on my stock Hot-Air intake....it seems easier, and I kinda want that stock look of the intake.


Anything else you can do to make a STOCK Hot-Air intake flow? Make getting that first 12 sec run a bit easier?!

 

[TurboRegal84]

Dave.....great post....

is there a good amount of material that cane be removed to match up with the ports on the Heads?

I am doing a mild port/blend on my heads, so should I trace it out when I am done, or is there enough material to remove so I can match it up with the ported heads?


You kinda lost me with the EGR.......


I know there is about a 1/4" square tube that runs in that little "peak"....but did you drill it out so that it is all exposed?

Then you basicly re constructed what you ground out and made it a POINT that is centered so that it splits the air coming out of the turbo?!

(is that what your telling me to do?)

It sounds like a pretty good idea...

Do I need to worry about the size of the EGR hole(or do I just grind out all the material up to the whole)? does it have to be the same as stock?

 

[TurboBuickSix]

1. is there a good amount of material that cane be removed to match up with the ports on the Heads? .....
HELL YES,they are extremely small compared to the heads ports.You want them about the same as the head but NOT bigger-if anything a tad smaller than the head ports.

2.I am doing a mild port/blend on my heads, so should I trace it out when I am done, or is there enough material to remove so I can match it up with the ported heads? ......
Don't touch the ports on the heads-they flow enough air for you for now BUT,do blend the area under the valve called the bowl and you can also slightly smooth the corners on the valve stem bosses.BE CAREFUL NOT TO TOUCH THE HEAD GASKET SURFACE OR THE VALVE SEAT AT ALL! SO..trace the stock ports on the head and transfer that to the intake.There will be a good amount to remove from the intake.

3.The EGR is one of the important ones to get so I will have to try to get a pic for you.Another note on this though..I used a plug from a rear diff filler hole to screw into where the pipe used to screw in.Later on when time permits I will try to make this important part more clear.When you look in the hole where the turbo dumps in you right in the middle will see a flat raised area about 1/2 or so wide with a little slot in it where the egr enters the intake.This whole thing is like an upside down U,you are going to remove the top and sides but leave the floor intact.

Then you basicly re constructed what you ground out and made it a POINT that is centered so that it splits the air coming out of the turbo?! EXACTLY! but each side is increased in size from before and the air is now more organized going in instead of crashing against the square egr port roof which would add more heat to the hot-air.

You can fully block the egr with the plug from the diff(outside)and If you leave you egr solenoid intact the ecm will never know.It will slightly richen your mixture if you are tuned already but you should be able to deal with that no prob.EGR is not a good idea for these motors IMO ,but some may have to run one for strict emission states.But if is blocked from inside who will know?especially if it is stock outside. I made a block off plate as well for the valve itself and it really freed up some room on that side of the intake.
This is not a replacement for the marvelous TM setup but will do in a pinch until one can afford to upgrade to a better setup.Inside the intake there are no real big restrictions just a couple of sharp turns.The TM eliminates this winding path and that is why it is superior.My mods open up the bottlenecks without cuttin it up,that way the parts that jay mods are still intact.Pic or 2 later when time permits...later Dave

 

[6SENSE]

Herb, the stock hotair intake is probably the single worst part about the design of our engines. The flow is VERY restrictive. This was a main concern to me when I was putting my engine together. I have two brothers with intercooled cars, and I am basically the only hotair car racing around here, so I was looking at everything that I knew needed improvement (I knew I was the underdog).
I was very close to cutting my intake open to PROPERLY "gut" it out (allowing more flow opens the door for plenty of performance, how can you utilize the extra power from a bigger turbo with our stock intake design?). I know this was going to take some work, and I wasnt able to weld the aluminum myself so I knew I was going to have to find someone to do it.
Another turboregal owner in the local buick club here let me know about this intake he saw on the internet (thanks Jesse!). It was the hotair intake made by turbomotion. I think it is referred to as the V1. This is the intake that they came up with before their V2 intercooled setup. I bought it through Dave at GNT in Florida (its S&S now isnt it?). It does not look like that V3 pictured above. It looks like stock minus the ridges on top of the intake (turbo stays in the same place and is clocked the same). There were detailed pictures at the GNT website that I looked at before getting it (they showed the whole process of making the intake). The intake really looks great and flows so much more air (completely open plenum).
This was definately the best route to go. It saved me time and time is money. I dont know if I would have came out any cheaper spending the time to do it myself, the intake is a quality product and that made it well worth it. If youve noticed my sig it has always said that I didnt want a intercooler and dont mind being a "hotair underdog", sounds like your thinking the same way. I think you will be very impressed and happy with this intake, I definately wouldnt be saying it if I didnt think so, no one is paying me to advertise!
Good luck, Justin.

 

[TurboRegal84]

I too have seen some pics of the V1 intake...and I am pretty interested in it...but does anyone know how to cut out the bottom part and what to take out once it is all apart?

I think that porting out the inside to the intake, doing the EGR "mountain" work, and doing some mild porting to it the Intake will be alot better then stock.


I am going to take a look at my spare intake today, and try to decide if its too much work to cut it open.


I want to stay the "Hot-Air Under dog"...but I also want to keep the intake and turbo stock looking....so as of right now the TM V2 and V3 intakes do not interest me.

Thanks for all these great ideas.....this is great!!!

 

[TType84]

herb, honestly, you couldnt reproduce a tm intake yourself

 

[TurboRegal84]

.....I cut open the stock intake...and Keith and I did some grinding and cutting in there......we will see how it works when I bolt it onto my car...Stay tuned for future details!

 

[TurboBuickSix]

What he said...

Originally posted by TType84
herb, honestly, you couldnt reproduce a tm intake yourself

 

[Andrew Mandery]

I have a V1. I am in the process of instaliing the motor now. Its been a long term project. The V1 mounts everything in the stock location. I know this because I have put the bracketry etc. on the motor while it sits on the stand. I bought one of the first made. I think Jay was selling them for $450 at one time. The bad news is that he is converting V1 to V3. I am not sure he will make V1 anymore. I can post pics if you want. By the way, I am missing the actual spark plug wire clamps(attach to the bracket bolted to the valve covers). Out of production by GM. Only 86/87 clamps available to my knowledge. Anybody know what will substitute?

 

[TType84]

I helped drew put on the VERY FIRST tm intake, prototype #1, chris wilson got #2 i believe... but yea.. outwardly the intake is exactly the same except the raised finned part is cut off and its rather flat..