Water in Trans - how to flush?

[turbojimmy]

Hi all,

I finally got my flood Caddy running yesterday. It runs good and has relatively few codes stored given the fact that it was submerged in water. I haven't attempted to put it in gear yet because the trans fluid looked like a strawberry milkshake. I dropped the pan, drained it and put new fluid in it. Started it up - instant milkshake again.

How can I flush this thing out?

Thanks,
Jim

 

[Buick From Hell]

Instead of dropping the pan, disconnect the cooling lines from the radiator (or tranny cooler if there is one??)...

figure out how to get them to drain into a large oil catcher or bucket or whatever, just remember we're talking about 3 gallons of fluid! One line is going to squirt oil when you start the car, one wont, and I have no idea how to tell which, just be prepared! (the oil pumps out at the rate of about 1 or 2 gallons per minute, so it's not like it will shoot halfway across the yard!) Have someone start the car while you watch the fluid pump out, then shut it down when it stops...

This way pumps the fluid out the torque convertor too. Not sure how many times you'll have to go thru this, and it may be a good idea to have the rear end on jackstands and have it idle thru all the gears so new fluid gets to all the passages. But it's real easy, the only problem is the expense of new fluid...

 

[turbojimmy]

Thanks BFH. I'll see if I can get at the lines. It's amazing how they crammed that 4.6L V8, trans and transaxle all under the hood of this thing. There's not even room for a battery - it's under the back seat.

Jim

 

[INEEDAGN]

He He.. I get to finish installing another one of those trannys when I get to work tomorrow.

Unhooking the lines should work to get the water out, those are gonna be a pian in the rear to get to. I would imagine the one that comes out the very front is the pressure line so you could rig up a drain hose off of it. The hole where you fill/check it at doesnt go all the way to the pan so you may have one hell of a time getting it to circulate enough to get all the water out. That transmission has three seperate filters in it, and I believe three seperate pumps. Buy a 55 Gal. drum of dexron and change it every day for two weeks lol. Seriously though, how long did it have water in it? Things like clutches, bands, and molded rubber seals can come apart if they get exposed to water, not to mention water doesnt lubricate well so it may have already damaged the pump(s). I'm giving you the worst case scenario so you may get lucky and it could run forever. Hard to say until you try. Be sure to blow out the cooler in the radiator too when you unhook the lines. You sir, have big brass cojones for attempting to resurrect a flooded caddy. You couldn't have gotten a park avenue??

I wish you luck, you're gonna need it.

bob

 

[turbojimmy]

Originally posted by INEEDAGN
You sir, have big brass cojones for attempting to resurrect a flooded caddy. You couldn't have gotten a park avenue??

I wish you luck, you're gonna need it.

bob

I keep asking myself why I didn't just get one of the Buicks or Pontiacs. But it's a good looking car. The only reason I attempted it is because he has another one just like it - a DTS. It's a collision total so all the parts are good. I can take whatever I want off of it (I've actually gotten all of the electronics out of it). The drivetrain is gone (sold), but for what I bought the car for I could swap the motor and trans and still be way ahead of the game financially.

As soon as I was able to get fuel to it (rigged up a stock Turbo Regal fuel pump) it fired right up (I had already pulled the plugs and let it dry out). It's only stored 5 codes, which is amazing. 4 of them are related to each other, the 5th has to do with the EVAP vacuum circuit.

I swapped all the electronics over from the wreck so all that works. I just need to swap over seat motors and the motors for the power tilt/telescoping column. Then I can put the interior back in - it's been drying in my basement for 2 weeks. The leather actually dried out nicely. The foam cushions took forever but they're nearly dry now too.

If it needs a trans it's better than needing a trans and a motor which is where I thought I was a week ago.

Thanks for the advice.

Jim

 

[John Larkin]

Bruce told me that if you want to get all the fluid out of a trans, drop the pan, disconnect the ECM and turn the engine over with the starter for about 10 seconds. Then let it drain overnight. Dunno if that applies to Caddys but supposedly it does the job for RWD. Maybe you'd be best calling him. At least you'd get the straight poop.

 

[turbojimmy]

Thanks John, I'll try Bruce today. That method sounds a lot easier. The lines are indeed tough to get at, but the front one wouldn't be so bad if it's the pressure line (like INEEDAGN said).

Jim

 

[INEEDAGN]

I was thinking about this today while working on the one we have here, when I remembered that you can drain the side cover too when you have the pan off. Pull the pan back off, and look next to the filter on the driver's side. There should be a 7/16" headed pipe plug screwed into the case. Pull this plug and the fluid will drain out of the side cover. The side cover on those units has its own sealed reservoir (which is actually the reservoir that you check the level in, with the very short dipstick.) When you pulled the pan the first time it didn't drain, and thus you still saw the milkshake on the stick. Drain it all, fill it, and run it through the gears on a lift or jackstands, which will circulate the fluid without putting a load on it (you will have to turn off the traction control, should be a button in the glove box). Drain it again and keep repeating the cycle to be sure, fluid is cheap. The pan gasket is reusable (12 Ft.-Lbs) and it shouldn't hurt the filters, clean them with brake clean or something. This is the way i'd do it anyway. Any more questions, feel free to ask.

bob

 

[TurboJim]

Jim:

Guy up there had a good point. Many of the adhesives used to stick the linings to the steels are water soluable. Better check it our before you waste your time

 

[INEEDAGN]

EDIT to my second post: I don't remember offhand if the 4T80E has the normal sized pan bolts or the small ones. If they are the small ones, they won't hold 12 Ft Lbs. Minor detail, but I had to correct myself or I wouldn't be able to sleep tonight.

bob

 

[turbojimmy]

Bob - thanks for the info. I'll check it out when I drop the pan again.

Jim - That's not good news but I got nothing to lose by draining it again and running it. If it destroys itself then I gotta replace it. If not, I may get some use out of it. A rebuilt one is $2k, a used one is $7-800. Labor is around $500 if my uncle's help does the work. Since I got all of the baked electronics for free, I'm ahead of the game budget-wise. Replacing the trans will bring me closer to the max, but still within the acceptable limit.

Hopefully I can get it road worthy before the New Year.

Thanks again for the advice everyone!

Jim

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by turbojimmy
Bob - thanks for the info. I'll check it out when I drop the pan again.

Jim - That's not good news but I got nothing to lose by draining it again and running it. If it destroys itself then I gotta replace it. If not, I may get some use out of it. A rebuilt one is $2k, a used one is $7-800. Labor is around $500 if my uncle's help does the work. Since I got all of the baked electronics for free, I'm ahead of the game budget-wise. Replacing the trans will bring me closer to the max, but still within the acceptable limit.

Hopefully I can get it road worthy before the New Year.

Thanks again for the advice everyone!

Jim

Heh, I keep forgetting how you got the car! Youre WAY ahead even if you need a new trans

 

[turbojimmy]

Originally posted by TurboJim
Heh, I keep forgetting how you got the car! Youre WAY ahead even if you need a new trans

Yeah, $$-wise it's a good deal but it's been about 100 times more effort than I had anticipated. If I didn't have the donor car I'd be up a creek (pun intended).

Jim

 

[turbojimmy]

UPDATE

So far so good. I've changed the oil two more times. With each time I remove the secret drain plug (thanks Bob for that), fill it and start it and run it through the gears on jackstands. With this third batch of fluid it looks pretty good. Not 100% great, but it has the consistency of oil - not water and not watery oil like before. It shifts fine at least on jackstands.

This thing cracks me up. As it dries out, wacky things start to happen. It's less funny because these are my problems to fix but you have to laugh. First, some pump started running under the hood. I don't know what it is, sounds like it's pumping fluid. Runs whether the key is on or not. The lights come on when you put the car in gear. It thinks it's dark out because I've removed the photoelectric sensor so maybe that's why. The best part is I'm sitting there with half my body in the car/half out (no seats) operating the brake and shift cable (no shifter either) and suddenly it decides to clean the windsheild. Not just activate the wipers, but washers and everything. After a few squirts, a couple in my face, and a few wipes it shuts off. I'm pretty sure it's the switch. It has the rain-sensing wipers but I've eliminated that as a problem using the service manuals. I have a new switch but wipers are low on the list of priorities.

It looks like the water pump is leaking, too which is a very common problem with these Northstars. There's a redesigned pump available.

Thanks for the tips - hopefully the trans will hold up for a little while.

Jim

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by turbojimmy
UPDATE

First, some pump started running under the hood. I don't know what it is, sounds like it's pumping fluid.

Possibly the air suspension is full of water? The compressor will run key on and key off...

The lights come on when you put the car in gear. It thinks it's dark out because I've removed the photoelectric sensor so maybe that's why.

That is the daytime running lights. Theyre supposed to do that. ON Chevy trucks you can overide them by pressing the "dome override" button 3 times in 5 secs, not sure on the cad-ooo

The best part is I'm sitting there with half my body in the car/half out (no seats) operating the brake and shift cable (no shifter either) and suddenly it decides to clean the windsheild. Not just activate the wipers, but washers and everything. After a few squirts, a couple in my face, and a few wipes it shuts off. I'm pretty sure it's the switch. It has the rain-sensing wipers but I've eliminated that as a problem using the service manuals. I have a new switch but wipers are low on the list of priorities.

Jim

Thats a weird one. You will probaby need a scanner with BCM capabilities to dio that one. I believe you can view most if not all of the PIDS in the driver information center. Let me think, press off and warmer (might be "pass side warmer" will you get the segment check, then I think its high fan to step thru data (PCM, BCM, IPC, TCM etc) anf fan low is "yes". So, off/warmer till segment check, then fan high. Will give PCM, BCM etc codes, then PCM? hit yes (fan low) to get to the data, fan high to step thru, etc. I am not sure what info is there in the BCM data, but maybe you can decipher a wiper request or something and narrow it down to a switch or a water sensor etc. Usually, the wipers are only automatic when theyre ON. ie: they wont come ON automatically, they just adjust the delay by how wet the window is. Is the caddy like that?

Jim

 

[turbojimmy]

Originally posted by TurboJim

Possibly the air suspension is full of water? The compressor will run key on and key off...

The compressor in the back runs fine when it's supposed to. I don't know if there's another one up front. There's a compressor-looking thing on the lower rad support close to where the noise is coming from. It has stability control, too but I'm not sure how it works. There's a lateral acceleration sensor and a yaw sensor. The dash says it needs some work in that area.....

That is the daytime running lights. Theyre supposed to do that. ON Chevy trucks you can overide them by pressing the "dome override" button 3 times in 5 secs, not sure on the cad-ooo

That's good. I won't mess with it 'til I get the rest of this stuff sorted out.

Thats a weird one. You will probaby need a scanner with BCM capabilities to dio that one. I believe you can view most if not all of the PIDS in the driver information center. Let me think, press off and warmer (might be "pass side warmer" will you get the segment check, then I think its high fan to step thru data (PCM, BCM, IPC, TCM etc) anf fan low is "yes". So, off/warmer till segment check, then fan high. Will give PCM, BCM etc codes, then PCM? hit yes (fan low) to get to the data, fan high to step thru, etc. I am not sure what info is there in the BCM data, but maybe you can decipher a wiper request or something and narrow it down to a switch or a water sensor etc. Usually, the wipers are only automatic when theyre ON. ie: they wont come ON automatically, they just adjust the delay by how wet the window is. Is the caddy like that?

Yes the Caddy is like that. The rain-sensing wipers only work when you turn it on (uses the same stalk as the intermittent wipers). Each step in on the intermittent setting is how much moisture the sensor will tolerate. Off is off. Thanks for the info on the dash diagnostics. I'll try it. I really need a way to pull the body codes without spending $4k on a Tech2.

According to the manual the only thing that will make the wipers come on when you don't want them to is the switch. I have another column for it so I'm going to swap the whole thing out (it's a power column and the one that's in it is dead).

Thanks!

Jim

 

[INEEDAGN]

Thread resurrection! Just wondering how it's coming along or if the tranny is crap. Inquiring minds want to know!

bob

 

[turbojimmy]

Originally posted by INEEDAGN
Thread resurrection! Just wondering how it's coming along or if the tranny is crap. Inquiring minds want to know!

bob

Sorry I didn't see this 'resurrection' 'til now. Haven't been here in a while - been hanging out on the Caddy board getting the Caddy up to snuff.

I'm happy to report that I have 1,200 trouble-free miles on it. The only thing I had to change out since I got it running was the crankshaft position sensors - they ("they" as in 2 of them) are a common failure item on the 2000 and 2001 Northstars. Not too hard to replace.

I didn't like the looks of the trans fluid after about 6 times dropping the pan. It kept getting frothy and milky lookng. So I took the upper cooler line off of it, started it up, and did my own 'trans flush'. I let it pump itself into a 5-gallon bucket while I poured fresh fluid in it. When the fluid coming out looked like the fluid going in I stopped. It's worked great ever since. Fluid still looks great, too.

The constant running underneath was the ABS motor. I needed an "EBTCM" (electronic brake and traction control module). I had an extra one from the wrecked car - that fixed it.

The random wiper action was a baked circuit board on the wiper motor itself. Replaced it, and that's fine too.

Everything's working fine except for one power window switch and the right rear door lock actuator.

I put a loud Corsa exhaust system on it and really like the car a lot. Updated pics are here:

http://www.turbojimmy.com/dts/dts.html

Jim