What is needed to put a 153 (on center) engine into a TR?

[Real-T]

Hi All,

I had been doing some searches about putting a 153 (on center) engine into a street TR. By Street TR I mean a car that was previously 109 based an has all that is needed for that 109.

So Far I have found that transitioning to an On Center engine may not be that daunting a task and that most (maybe all) things can bolt right up with a small amount of effort.

Here is what I found so far:
- Stock intake will not work so an on-center intake will be needed
- Lower pulley may need to be shimmed about .120" to have the belt line up when the alt/PS bracket is bolted to the front of the block.

The different intake is pretty clear and I would assume the Plenum/TB would all line up as well? Meaning no changes to the up pipe or anything like that?

What about the headers, will stock/stock replacement type headers line up or does the crossover need to be modified? Will the turbo also land in the same spot as stock?

Anything else of concern that would turn someone away from this ?

I'd really like to hear from anyone that might have done this or looked into it.

Mike

 

[pacecarta]

stock motor mounts work or youll need stage hr mounts

 

[turbobuick]

It's a pretty simple swap. Intake is most difficult issue if you are running Stage 1 prod style heads. You will need a spacer for the balancer and the accessories will all bolt up. I just used a Champion Alt bracket on mine but the factory stuff can be made to work pretty easily and I know guys who have made the AC fit and work. Headers turbos etc all bolt right on not sure about stock headers though, I ran a set of ATRs with no issues for years. Most of the time these parts are all aftermarket when someone gets to the point of upgrading to an on-center.

 

[Real-T]

This is great insight and making me feel more comfortable with the idea. I hope others reading this will benefit too.

I have a chance to build up a 153, but the car that is going into is really a street car (maybe done a best of 10's @ 127mph).

It will be overkill for what the car can handle, but it sure would be nice to have something that is strong and can handle anything.

The next question would be.......what does the overall spend look like?

While it would be good to use higher end stuff, can we get away with the caliber of parts (Crank, rods, pistons etc) that would be used on say a 109?

I think the rods for the 153 will be different though so that might be a given to spend more on them.

What about oiling system? Is it as simple as drilling a drainback for the turbo? Would a stock-ish front cover bolt up?

Mike

 

[steve hughes]

You'll need a Dutweiller style external pickup oiling system to convert that dry sump block to wet sump.

 

[rag231]

Is Duttweiller or TA still making those? I sent a 4 stage oil pump up to Weaver and they asked me a few questions, converted it to a 3 stage and it works perfectly. That was in 03.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

The next question would be.......what does the overall spend look like?

North of $20K to do it right. Remember all the "supporting" parts that go with.
Mine was that much, and that was over 25 yrs ago.
Nice part was drive to the track, crank off a couple mid 9's at 140+, get asked to "slow it down", drive home.

 

[Real-T]

Thanks Chuck. I am sort of expecting it to be in that ball park since the parts are so specialized. Plus it should be done right with a block that sturdy.

But I am with you in that it is nice to know something that "could" handle 1000Hp and then not having to use near that but be able to drive it home.

I have had my TR since 1996 and it's on it's 3rd 109, 2nd rear-end, numerous transmission builds so I must be either crazy or a hardcore Buick guy to still be in it.....may as well go all the way and head for a 4.1 on-center.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Mike, if I were to do it again, I think I'd go the TA route. Probably in the end, it's about the same bucks.
I had several complete on center engines from the Nascar series runners.
Several were bought with the break in oil in them.
I'll piss everyone off...The most expensive one was $5K!
The best one was $1500. Got it from Buck Baker's dad, Mr Buck sr.
Still in the engine shop crate.

 

[turbobuick]

TA block is close to $6300 to your door these days and still needs a lot of machine work to be finished.

 

[rag231]

Sorry Chris, $6800 for the block now.

 

[Mr.Spool]

I have had my TR since 1996 and it's on it's 3rd 109, 2nd rear-end, numerous transmission builds so I must be either crazy or a hardcore Buick guy to still be in it.....may as well go all the way and head for a 4.1 on-cente

That's along time I feel you
The tranny parts are much better now though and so is the ability to properly tune the cars.
10s is alot easier to do reliably these days.
You dont need a stage motor or even a stout 109 to do that.
So if your trying to revamp the entire car for 10 sec power I would just say get another 109 done right and save yourself alot of time and money
If your itchy or want a stage motor and want to go down that path I understand that too
I have both personally but I like to race

 

[Mr.Spool]

As far as blocks go
I cant in good conscious tell anyone to get a 7500+ block alone to run 10s.
There are and have been several 109s that make 900/1000 hp and can do it for a pretty good amount of time barring the usual stuff that can take out any engine.
You wouldn't even need to be close hp wise to run into the 10s that can be done on far less power,far less hard parts,far less supporting high $ mods.

 

[Mr.Spool]

Mike, if I were to do it again, I think I'd go the TA route. Probably in the end, it's about the same bucks.
I had several complete on center engines from the Nascar series runners.
Several were bought with the break in oil in them.
I'll piss everyone off...The most expensive one was $5K!
The best one was $1500. Got it from Buck Baker's dad, Mr Buck sr.
Still in the engine shop crate.

Damn
I wont tell you how much my stage 2 costs
I had 3 built 109s motors for less then my one stage 2 on center costs

 

[BEATAV8]

Couple of things I'm not exactly clear on regarding on-center.... (Maybe TA block specific)
-The front cover / block face must be .120 further forward? As .120 spacers are needed for cam gear & balancer for alignment.
-Cylinders are relocated. Lifter bores are not. Are "offset" lifters necessary? Or is it common to use typical centered lifter? Pushrods would be a lil bit crooked...(production style head)

 

[Mike T]

Couple of things I'm not exactly clear on regarding on-center.... (Maybe TA block specific)
-The front cover / block face must be .120 further forward? As .120 spacers are needed for cam gear & balancer for alignment.
-Cylinders are relocated. Lifter bores are not. Are "offset" lifters necessary? Or is it common to use typical centered lifter? Pushrods would be a lil bit crooked...(production style head)

Yes you'll have a few push rods laying over a bit. Number 3 intake is the worst on mine. 153 block with TA Eliminators.

I've been looking at ways to run a hydraulic cam in mine. It's a challenge to keep the pushrod tube's out of the intake ports.

In a solid roller application it takes a couple of offset lifters on the intakes to get by the port.

If you wanted to stand all of the pushrods up straight it would take a set of lifers with various offsets from what I can tell

 

[Mike T]

Old hydraulics just to verify and measure. The marker line to the right of the number 3 intake port represents how close the pushrod is to the port and it's still about . 040 from being centered in the cup

 

[BEATAV8]

Yes you'll have a few push rods laying over a bit. Number 3 intake is the worst on mine. 153 block with TA Eliminators.

I've been looking at ways to run a hydraulic cam in mine. It's a challenge to keep the pushrod tube's out of the intake ports.

In a solid roller application it takes a couple of offset lifters on the intakes to get by the port.

If you wanted to stand all of the pushrods up straight it would take a set of lifers with various offsets from what I can tell

Thanks.
I found a motor trend article with pics of the front of an on center TA block so I understand how it’s “stepped” and why the cam gear & balancer spacers are needed. The motor in the article had hydraulic roller lifters in it but there was no info about how the pushrods lined up.

 

[Mike T]

I've studied those pictures as well. Would have liked to see how he set it up. Oversized press in pushrod tube's would work but once again you're getting back into the port.
A rocker offset greater than what I currently have would move the pushrod away from the port but increase the undesirable pushrod angle even further

 

[BEATAV8]

View attachment 403174

Old hydraulics just to verify and measure. The marker line to the right of the number 3 intake port represents how close the pushrod is to the port and it's still about . 040 from being centered in the cup

Great photo! Much appreciated