Whats the trick to getting felpro 1007 head gaskets to actually seal?

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

50 miles on motor, retorqued heads again.
Car sat for 1 year and i didnt drive it.

Well, i got into it today, both heads lifted and filled cyl #3 and #5
and #4 on the pass side with coolant.
Arp bolts, not studs...

No sign of damage to gaskets at all, just not sealing worth a darned.

Boost was only 16psi and was rich, but no knock...

I should have waited on one of erics chips, but couldnt resist.

Heads were checked for being straight before i assembled it, also checked for cracks....

Where do i go from here?
I already took the heads off immediately, just filled the cyls and didnt do the milkshake

BW

 

[Bobs rare 6]

Seems to be an epidemic around here!!! Why dont you use rjc or cometic head gaskets? I think the only reason mine blew was because I detonated It from alky not working. Give me a call sometime. Later, Bob.

 

[EightSecV6]

50 miles on motor, retorqued heads again.
Car sat for 1 year and i didnt drive it.

Well, i got into it today, both heads lifted and filled cyl #3 and #5
and #4 on the pass side with coolant.
Arp bolts, not studs...

No sign of damage to gaskets at all, just not sealing worth a darned.

Boost was only 16psi and was rich, but no knock...

I should have waited on one of erics chips, but couldnt resist.

Heads were checked for being straight before i assembled it, also checked for cracks....

Where do i go from here?
I already took the heads off immediately, just filled the cyls and didnt do the milkshake

BW

Sounds like the receiver groove is not deep enough OR cut improperly

 

[VadersV6]

Well, I would find some means of sealing off the cylinders so they dont get any of this stone debris in the cylinders, but you should get a rectangular sharpening stone, course grit, from mcmaster. They are made very flat and straight on all sides and good for making things flat again. Take that to your deck, and use WD-40 and make circular passes.
Chase all the intake bolt holes on the heads. Chase all your head bolt holes in the block. Use RED loctite liberally (so it has plenty of setting time) on all the head bolts. Make sure bolts are completely oil free before applying the loctite by soaking in acetone.
Put a dab of gear oil ontop of each head bolt hole and at the underside of every bolt head. Torque in 10 lb. ft. increments. When you get up at the high end of torque readings, wait 15 minutes between the final 3 torque steps.
Most important of all- torque the intake manifold properly. Torque it 20-25% lower than the factory recommended number. Also torque it in very small steps, and use red loctite on all those bolts....Dont overdo it on these ones. Use good fel pro's. Use the gear oil under every bolt head just like you did with the heads. Dont use any silicone on the intake gaskets. Dont retorque the intake cause you'll break the loctite bond.
The torque placed on the intake bolts, pulls up on the heads and reduces the clamping force on the head gaskets. When you get under boost, the intake is trying to push itself off the block with ALOT of force (lbs per square inch....force times area...think about it). This also pulls up and takes pressure off the head gaskets.
I think if your deck is flat, your heads are flat, and you do this procedure, they may just last.

 

[Race Jace]

If you use red loctite on the head bolts you won't be able to ever retorque them without breaking the seal. Red loctite is really not designed to be a thread sealer and it is not a very good thread lubricant.

There is also no need to use loctite on the intake manifold bolts

A better choice is to use Permatex thread sealer on the head bolts and ARP thread lube on everything else.


The biggest problem using ARP thread bolts is the thread length of the bolts is only 1". When you go to install them measure under the head of the bolt when the bolt first engages the threads in the block. Check each one to make sure you have close to 3/4" of thread engagement when installing them. If you have less than 1/2" then i have seen the threads pull out of the block. If you have more than 1" the bolt might bind on the end of the threads on the bolt before it actually contacts the head. This is why we recommend studs. You do not have this problem with them.

Since the intake bolts are perpendicular to the head bolts, torqueing them does absolutely nothing to the clamping force of the heads. They will however help to keep the head down when torqued properly. (Think of it like adding a 90-deg angle bracket to something you bolted to the table)

Also the pressure inside the manifold is not really directional so it has no more head lifting affect as it does any other direction.

If you are going to hone your deck surface be very very careful with the debris that comes off of the stone as this is about the worst substance you can put in an engine. Unless you have a raised spot that needs to be flattened i would not recommend doing this. I have also seen guys buff off the deck and head surface with scotch bright wheels on an air grinder. This is a big no no also. I would recommend cleaning the surfaces with lacquer thinner or alcohol.

Lastly use a little silicone on the corners of the rubber seals on the front and rear intake manifold seal.



There are many ways to skin a cat, this is just my suggestion.

 

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

here is the carnage, please realize the car sat for 1 year and i believe either the heads were not tight enough, or me running a scotch bright pad to clean the deck may have been the culprit BUTTTT i have done 15 turbo buick motors running grafite gaskets and NONE have popped a gasket EVER!!!!

As of right now im just stuck running 1007 gaskets with these f-ed up heads that flow alot of air....

I dont want to sound cocky, i am here to learn, and i believe the pictures that i will post will show what is wrong. The intake sets flat on the heads, and looks like the heads are loose at the top.
I dont want to hide anything, but yes i do clean heads off with a scotch brite pad, and not a green wheel.

I really messed up here, almost ready to bolt on another set of stock heads and drive the car.....

Give me your honest opinion?

I leave for vegas at 5pm, what a sour note to leave on?

 

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

looks like crap

 

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

more

 

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

In the first pic, cyl #1 wasnt wiped clean

I used arp thread sealant on the bolts, and moly lube on the heads and washers.

After reviewing the pics, looks pretty rusty and nasty if you ask me, but the heads were checked and cleaned prior to installation.
Looks like the heads need to be tossed in the trash and i go with another set of heads.

Looking for honest opinions.
Thanks
BW

 

[Race Jace]

I would have to agree with Bill. check the grooves.

it is hard to tell from the pictures. I have not had good luck with that ARP thread sealer. the one motor that i put together with that stuff looked like a sprinkler when i poured water into it. lol

Is that rust on top of the cyliners on the deck? it does not look like combustion leakage it looks like rust. if that is the case it looks like the gasket absorbed water like a sponge and held it there letting it rust for that year.

It looks like there was not enough crush on the paper portion of the gasket to seal the water. (grooves to shallow).

I would have the heads surfaced, amost no getting around it.

 

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

Is that rust on top of the cyliners on the deck? it does not look like combustion leakage it looks like rust. if that is the case it looks like the gasket absorbed water like a sponge and held it there letting it rust for that year.

It looks like there was not enough crush on the paper portion of the gasket to seal the water. (grooves to shallow).

I would have the heads surfaced, amost no getting around it.

Yes that is rust on the deck of the block,and yes it does look like it absorbed the coolant like a sponge and rusted the deck, all caused by the grooves being to shallow???

If i get the heads surfaced, then the grooves will have to be cut again right?

Grrrrrr....

Thanks for the help.
BW

 

[Race Jace]

look at it this way, if you stick with the 1007 you probably have to redo the groove reguardless of resurfacing the head.

 

[Mac in SD]

I went through a couple of sets of 1007's with water leakage, until I changed two things on Richard Lee's advice:

1. Gascacinch. I know FelPro says install them dry, but it worked.
2. Revised torque sequence inside-out across the top, then inside-out across the bottom, like a Ford.

Anyway, it worked.

 

[VadersV6]

Wow you couldnt have 2 opinions more mirrored than me and jasons. We used red loctite on the head bolts or studs on all the race motors, and all took re-torquing very well. Red loctite doesnt become glass hard. While it is alot harder than blue, it does stay somewhat permeable. A glass hard compound (green loctite...dont use this stuff on ANYTHING) wouldnt make a good thread locker, since it would just break contact with the wall when re-torquing and not seal right, or do anything worthwhile. If you want to back the bolts all the way and out start over, then the loctite is pointless. But the pliability of the red is just enough that it will allow a re-torque. The reason for the loctite on the intake, is because of the low torquing force I recommended. What im saying about the intake moving the heads....it pulls the heads sideways, and usually there is just enough play in the head dowels that the HG seal can (not will, but can) crack....not a sure thing with all cars, but Ive had it happen on my own cars. Overtorque an intake and you start puffing steam and sucking up coolant.
Like Jason said about the scotchbrite pad...I cant understand why anyone would do this....well, I can see people not realizing how much material those pads can remove. Judging by those pics, you turned that deck into a wavy potato chip. You get big dips and waves all over the deck, and nothing you do short of a new deck job will fix it. What i mentioned about the flat stone, is the only thing that will come close, but yes, that debris is by far the most damaging thing you could get in your engine. Thats why I said you need to get creative and find a way to keep that stuff out. But, that is the only way I see you fixing that deck. I would get some thick big sponges and cut them into circles. Soak them with WD-40, wring them out a little bit and shove them into the cylinders. If you do it right, this will keep the debris out, and when you carefully pull the sponges, any debris will come out with the sponge. But I would recommend having a vacuum nozzle there sucking away as you pull each sponge out. I actually did a gasket match port job on my cobra's heads this way, with the heads on the engine. Came out great and got no debris in the cylinders.

 

[VadersV6]

I went through a couple of sets of 1007's with water leakage, until I changed two things on Richard Lee's advice:

1. Gascacinch. I know FelPro says install them dry, but it worked.
2. Revised torque sequence inside-out across the top, then inside-out across the bottom, like a Ford.

Anyway, it worked.

Gasgacinch works incredible. Ive always got a jar of it handy. Works great on anything coolant related, including freeze plugs. Silicone is messy, comes loose and gets stuck in the coolant jackets. Gasgacinch is just a liquid with a cotton ball applicator that dries into a sticky residue. No mess.
Ive always ignored the factory torquing sequence. The way that works on every car, (just about any mechanical piece that gets torqued down (intakes also) is just start in the center, and rotate your way outward in a spiral with your sequence, and the more steps you take, the better you will seal.

 

[DonnieShort]

I recommend ARP head studs over bolts. Use Loctite 567 to seal the threads. Torque the heads in the proper sequence and torque setting, torque cycle the studs in 10 lb increments to the final torque depending on what lube you use and torque the intake to stock specs in the proper sequence. Oh and either use Jason's hg kit or Cometics. Then you should be fine. And btw, never use Red Loctite on the head bolts or studs Vader if it worked for you that's fine but to others I would not recommend it, there's alot better choices out there for thread sealers.

 

[WHEEZER]

As mentioned previously the head and deck surface has to be clean. This CANNOT be overemphasized. Each individual thread in each bolt hole has to be clean, this also CANNOT be overemphasized. Use a rifle bore cleaning bore brush and liberal amounts of brake cleaner to clean the holes/threads throughly....after deck and head surface is PERFECTLY clean to metal, use liberal amounts of brake cleaner to remove any type residue that may linger.( the previously mentioned foam in the cylinder and shop vac works great for removing any stray debris). Sorry for yelling, and for bringing up the obvious but this is crucial to a correct HG seal no matter what type gasket is used. Threads that are not perfectly clean cannot and will not provide the strength needed for a good "clamp". Head and deck surfaces that are too hurriedly prepped and improperly cleaned can and will give a bad seal. Always use brake cleaner or laquer thinner as a final step ( I personally prefer the brake cleaner). HTH and good luck.

 

[Race Jace]

Wow you couldn’t have 2 opinions more mirrored than me and Jason’s. We used red loctite on the head bolts or studs on all the race motors, and all took re-torqueing very well. Red loctite doesn’t become glass hard. While it is allot harder than blue, it does stay somewhat permeable. A glass hard compound (green loctite...dot use this stuff on ANYTHING) wouldn’t make a good thread locker, since it would just break contact with the wall when re-torqueing and not seal right, or do anything worthwhile. If you want to back the bolts all the way and out start over, then the loctite is pointless. But the pliability of the red is just enough that it will allow a re-torque. The reason.....

I thought for a minute that i had just entered the bizaro world where everything you knew had just turned upside-down. I always thought that Red loctite was the highest strength permanent non-serviceable/non removable thread locker available. From this description it sounds like the opposite of the best stuff for head bolts that must be retorqued. Being in the manufacturing industry for so long loctite applications are one of the things that you have known forever but can't remember the specifics of where you and how you learned them. I went and visited the loctite websight just to make sure i wasn't going crazy.

These are a few things i got off of the websight.

Recommended Engine & Powertrain
Oil pan, front cover, rear seals, T-joint, head & block cup plug, water pump, hoses, transmission housing, coolant system, bearings, dipstick tubes, bed plate, cam chain, timing belt, throttle body, plastic engine covers, range sensors, fuel injection system, cylinder cover, transmission bell housing, axle housing, rotor and hubs, axle tubes, axle cover panel, FWD elements, axle joints & pinion flange, bushing to stabiliser bar, composite/steel sub-frames, brake and ABS modules, caliper and bearing attachments, and other applications.

Notice there is not any mention of cylinder heads or intake manifold.

Q: How long does it take for an anaerobic adhesive to dry?

A: Anaerobic adhesives do not contain solvents, which must dry. For an anaerobic adhesive to cure, it must be in contact with active metal ions and contact with oxygen eliminated. Outside of a bonded joint, anaerobic materials will not completely cure. Inside the joint, cure rates can be controlled by changing product and primer. Heat can be used to accelerate cure rate.

I just put this in to illustrate how the loctite cures.

]
Q: What do colors mean?

A: Many times Loctite anaerobic materials are called " the red or the blue stuff". With threadlockers, colors designate strength. Generally red means high strength and blue means moderate strength, and purple is low strength. Other colors do indicate strengths in relative areas.


Q: How can I remove a fastener that is "permanently" locked in?

A: The application of heat is needed to remove a fastener that can't be removed with a hand tool. Temperatures of 325F and above is needed to break down a standard anaerobic, 500F for high temperature Anaerobics. A heat gun or propane torch is commonly used to do this process, and careful disassembly should occur while parts are still hot. Once apart, and cooled, use methylene chloride (Chisel #79040) to remove cured excess material. Always wipe down the fasteners with clean up solvent to remove the wax film that Chisel leaves on the surface.

This last question is the one that concerns me the most.

I don't mean to bust your balls but when someone is putting information out there in print that some can view as good advise, I can't just let it pass.

I agree with blocking the deck surface.

Wheezer, very sound advise.

 

[VadersV6]

The idea is that if done properly, you shouldnt have to re torque the head bolts. But if you do, the red is not some glass hard bonding agent that will crack and break away from the wall and cause the bolt to back out. People have been using the stuff on head bolts/studs for a very long time. Not saying its the best, but it did just fine for ALOT of pro engine builders until loctite changed their mind when they came out with a new product. Ever try to pull a head/main stud that was installed with red loctite? It doesnt just crack the bond and suddenly the bolt spins out. It is scammer enough (yet very strong) that it makes it very hard to pull a stud. It takes alot of force to screw that stud out. Its almost as hard to unscrew after 5 turns as it was the first. It can easily handle a 1/16th rotation during a retorque after it has cured, without falling apart like you seem to think it does. Plus it gives you a leak free seal even after the initial bond has been "broken". They dont mention heads because why would they? They can sell you 50 different thread lockers and question your sanity if you dont do it just like they say. $$$$$$
They recommend it for the bearings!!!??? Or howabout the timing chain? WTF is that all about? Would you drip some loctite on the timing chain or timing belt cause they say so?

 

[Race Jace]

They recommend it for the bearings!!!??? Or howabout the timing chain? WTF is that all about? Would you drip some loctite on the timing chain or timing belt cause they say so?

I'm sure they mean bearing retainers (remember they use this on non automotive applications also) and the timing chain gear bolts. (which is a good idea on the timing chain gear bolts.)

After thinking about it and your experience with it, to tell you the truth, it might work pretty good on sealing the studs in the block if it does not go glass hard. most of the applications that i use it on were in drilling applications and I had to remove the fastners with heat every time. Maybe in this application where it really only has to retain and seal the threads and not lubricate them like a head bolt it would work fine.