Will a V4 intercooler fit in the TA chassis?

[jjvites]

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I was wondering if anyone has tried putting in the stock location a CAS V4 Intercooler. What are the other intercooler that work in the TA. Going from a GN to a TA and have some parts . Please let me know.

Thanks,
Marty

 

[MaxVO2]

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I was wondering if anyone has tried putting in the stock location a CAS V4 Intercooler. What are the other intercooler that work in the TA. Going from a GN to a TA and have some parts . Please let me know.

Thanks,
Marty

*****I bought my barely used CAS V4 intercooler from a guy who had bought it for his TA, and he sold it because the fit was poor, and it sat too low. My GN is stock height and the big scoop on the bottom of the unit sits down pretty low even on my car. I have to be careful going over speed bumps, pedestrians, etc..

Hope this helps

Billy
Montgomery Village, MD

 

[jjvites]

Thanks Billy. What about a V2 front mount? Any others?

 

[postal]

All the stock location stretches are pretty much the same size. I tried a Bowling Green Customs stretch and it absolutely did not work. It hit every on every damn bump and just hitting the brakes a little to hard caused it to scrape.

I went with a ATR stock location liquid. I modified it and when it was all said and done it worked awesome. I don't understand why more TTA guys don't try liquid IC's. I know there is a BIG misconception out there that liquids need to run water tanks and have ice in them. The ATR unit does not come with a tank at all. It comes with the IC, a pump, and a heat exchanger which is basically a huge tranny cooler. The pump just circulates the water from the HX to the IC and back into the HX. When you run a liquid set up like this you dont get the really low inlet temps. What you do get is inlet temps comparable to a large air to air unit but in a much smaller package that fits in the stock location with no ground clearance issues.

Garrett has a new line of cores out. Thier largest liquid core is less than half the size of a stock TTA core but has a NOMINAL (not maximum, but this is where it works good at rating) of 1000 hp! Half the size of a stocker and good for 1000 hp, thats one hell of a statement. Water can absorb alot more heat energy than air and it will absorb it at a much faster rate. Those two things add up to a good IC thats is extremely small compared to an air/air unit.

When you consider the space restraints of the TTA and the lack of a good off the shelf air/air IC for them the ATR set up seams to be a no brainer. The big problem with the ATR unit was the price of $1800. I bought mine for $1200 used off a guy who purchased a car with one installed and some misinformed buddies told him he should sell it and get an air/air unit. Every now and then you see one come up for sale and I seen one earlier this year that a guy had up for around $850. That was alot cheaper than any others I've seen for sale.

HTH: Jason

 

[Lee_Burough]

All the stock location stretches are pretty much the same size. I tried a Bowling Green Customs stretch and it absolutely did not work. It hit every on every damn bump and just hitting the brakes a little to hard caused it to scrape.

I went with a ATR stock location liquid. I modified it and when it was all said and done it worked awesome. I don't understand why more TTA guys don't try liquid IC's. I know there is a BIG misconception out there that liquids need to run water tanks and have ice in them. The ATR unit does not come with a tank at all. It comes with the IC, a pump, and a heat exchanger which is basically a huge tranny cooler. The pump just circulates the water from the HX to the IC and back into the HX. When you run a liquid set up like this you dont get the really low inlet temps. What you do get is inlet temps comparable to a large air to air unit but in a much smaller package that fits in the stock location with no ground clearance issues.

Garrett has a new line of cores out. Thier largest liquid core is less than half the size of a stock TTA core but has a NOMINAL (not maximum, but this is where it works good at rating) of 1000 hp! Half the size of a stocker and good for 1000 hp, thats one hell of a statement. Water can absorb alot more heat energy than air and it will absorb it at a much faster rate. Those two things add up to a good IC thats is extremely small compared to an air/air unit.

When you consider the space restraints of the TTA and the lack of a good off the shelf air/air IC for them the ATR set up seams to be a no brainer. The big problem with the ATR unit was the price of $1800. I bought mine for $1200 used off a guy who purchased a car with one installed and some misinformed buddies told him he should sell it and get an air/air unit. Every now and then you see one come up for sale and I seen one earlier this year that a guy had up for around $850. That was alot cheaper than any others I've seen for sale.

HTH: Jason

Yes Jason, your experience is important! Thanks, I've posted this info to your Quarter Miles performance link in the TTA FAQ List.

 

[jjvites]

Jason,
Great post here as well as the one on your build up. Real world experience is priceless, and it saves a lot of money .

Thanks,
Marty

 

[postal]

One thing I can say is that I try to run what I recommend. I now have four liquid IC's in my possesion:

I have two liquids built with the new Garrett 1000 hp cores. These two intercoolers are going on the memorial build of my nephews Twin turbo GN. I bought the pair of these brand new shipped to me for right at $1100. Thats $1100 shipped for the pair! Theres no piping but for this application I would have to do my own piping anyway. It will probably take me about $200 to $300 to do the piping.

For the TTA twin turbo build up I picked up a huge liquid IC that was ran in a low 7 second mustang. This is a liquid IC that is actually bigger than most front mounts. I will have to modify the nose of the car to stick this up in there. I kind of wish I could sell this one and pick up another pair of these smaller liquids. I don't think thats going to happen though because the price went up on these Garrett's and it would now be around $1600 for a pair of them. I only paid $1000 shipped for this big sucker, which included a fuel cell and a big pump.

The fourth liquid I have is my old ATR unit. I'm really stuck on what I should do with it. It's been modified to work with my old set up. The damn thing works awesome but it would pretty much have to go to some one who leans towards wanting a hardcore set up. BTW, At the end of a 27 to 30# run my up pipe would be cooler to the touch than my cold air induction pipe!

I know liquid IC's aren't for every one, and when talking about a GN I think the best IC for most applications is a stock location stretch. Us TTA guys are kind of screwed when it comes to IC choices. We have some advantages with our TTA's but there are three big things where we are at a disadvantage:

1. no readily available 3" down pipes
2. we can't run GN-1 aluminum heads
3. we basically have no IC selection

The way my brain works is like this:

"If I have to pay a few hundred dollars more than a GN guy to get this IC because I have to buy this liquid instead of an air/air ... then so be it."

I now have personal experience with these IC's; Stock, Stock location stretch, Front mount, and liquid. There probably aren't many people that can make that statement.

I bought the first liquid because I felt it was the best choice for my TTA and the factors that go with a TTA. I can now say that after messing with liquids that I'm sold on them. Properly sized and set up they will do thier job VERY well. Most guys who have been messing around with hot rods for a while know that you can't say that VERY often about most of the stuff people tell us to buy. Thier are the obvious performance advantages to running a liquid but there are also lesser known intangibles. Two big ones are that you can hot lap a liquid intercooled car with no performance loss, and a liquid IC can seriously help save you from grenading your motor.

Anyway I've owned three GN's and I made the choice along time ago that the TTA is what I really wanted to stick with to be MY car. I realized when I made that decision a few years ago that there were going to be a few instances where the TTA was going to dip into my funds a little harder than a GN would. About five years later now and pretty much every instance where a TTA cost more has come and gone. Do I ever wish that I had a GN instead and had those few hundred here and there back? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Merry Christmas to you fellow board members!

Jason

 

[Razor]

The answer to cooling the air charge on a TTA is alcohol. It will make the worst IC appear like a huge front mount. Keep the appearances simple.

On a car you cannot get airflow through the core of an IC... it in my opinion is the best solution.

Everything has a plus and minus.

 

[Grumpy]

I have a customer here that ran 11.3s @ 121 with all season tires I just put alky on it .. now have to wait till April when the track opens

 

[jjvites]

Jason,
When you say that GN1 aluminum heads can't be run on TA's, that's with the A/C in place I assume. Will they work if the A/C heater box is removed?

 

[Grumpy]

Jason,
When you say that GN1 aluminum heads can't be run on TA's, that's with the A/C in place I assume. Will they work if the A/C heater box is removed?

yes ... although you can prob do them(with AC) if ya do a set of headers $$$$ for it

 

[postal]

The answer to cooling the air charge on a TTA is alcohol. It will make the worst IC appear like a huge front mount. Keep the appearances simple.

I'm I the only one who notices that you sure love to tell everyone to run a stock IC yet you haven't run one for years. You even made a post recently titled:

Did it at Reynolds.. Top Spot Please..

You continually tell people not to run upgraded parts while you in turn have been running them for a couple of years. I get the impression that you want people to buy your alky kit so you can make money and then you want them to keep thier cars handicaped so you can retain the "Top spot".

I on the other hand feel that there are people out there that are interested in hearing the the different options, taking feed back on other peoples expierience and or research on the different options and then going on from there to make an educated and personalized decision on which options they want to pursure for thier car. I will do my best to try to help any other TTA or GN owner beat any of my personal accomplishments. I will give them feedback on where I feel I did good, and where I feel I may have made a mistake. I can say that I walk the path I talk and some one out thier has to atleast respect that.

Jason

 

[Razor]

Jason... off all the people..

How bout Bo's car with a stock IC and a TA49 ran 11.34 on 93 octane

Notice that I didnt say "Must run my alky kit".. Boy your thick.

Actually when you can do more than me with less... then you may rub my nose in it. Until then I have the fastest stock block TTA in the world. Pump gas/race gas/nitrous.. whatever... I am on top of my little mountain till somebody knocks me off of it.

Stock OEM pistons, stock rods, stock crank, hyd cam, 3 inch DP, etc... Full weight..

132.22 on 93 octane on a heavy car with a V6.. say what you will... i'm living the dream.. remember those stock pistons still in the block :wink:

I would still of been running the stocker on mine as it made no improvement going to a FM.

:wink:

 

[Razor]

Wanted to add.. I already beat your 60 foot
1.441

 

[jjvites]

Razor,
You have a great product and I will probably buy one. I read about your accomplishments over time and I think they are great but...
I don't think it was appropriate for you to discount the great post on "intercoolers" by Postal and just jump in with the "alcohol" solution since this thread started on intercooler choices. And now you guys are gonna have a pissing contest. Lets save that for the Chevy and Ford guys.
Your both smart and others on here, and thats why I'm here to learn from you guys. Lets move on.

Thanks for info,
Marty

 

[postal]

Actually when you can do more than me with less... then you may rub my nose in it. Until then I have the fastest stock block TTA in the world. Pump gas/race gas/nitrous.. whatever... I am on top of my little mountain till somebody knocks me off of it.

Thanks for clearing that up. "The fastest stock block TTA in the world" .....runs an upgraded IC.

Right off the FAQ list in order of performance:

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1188853#post1188853
ran with dequick front mount

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=103645
ran with dequick front mount

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=152077
ran with dequick front mount

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1184289#post1184289
ran with dequick front mount

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141544
ran with dequick front mount

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=136454
ran with a front mount

Wasn't there a guy recently who ran a stock long block TTA into the 10's with a home made liquid IC?

So the top six TTA performers ran front mount IC's. I can't be the only one out there that can see this? Thier are people out there that may want to put thier name in that list, and NO BODY in the upper part of that list are running alky as thier only form of an intercooler upgrade. I would think that our own FAQ list would be undisputed proof that an IC upgrade should be some thing that a guy wanting to build a faster TTA should look into.

Jason

 

[Grumpy]

hmmmm guess I will add my .02's .. My wifes tweaked "stock" TTA ran 11.9s @115 back in 89 - 90 . I tried a water cooled intercooler and it did work slightly on a stocker but killed the car on the street . I kept it for 1 day and it was gone . Have another TTA here with a 44 turbo , blue top inj , ported heads . compete 3" exhaust (still have that crappy elbow on the turbo ) .. Car ran 11.3's @121 with all season tires and a closed exhaust .. I just put on Julio's Alky system and the car feels great .. I think it is one of the best "bang for the $$$" now .. hey things change since 1989 :biggrin: now how many guys are goin to push there cars past say..... a mid 11 at best ???? not many .. as far as I can see .
now what about a THDP ??? ya know everyone "needs" it to run 12's

 

[Razor]

Razor,
You have a great product and I will probably buy one. I read about your accomplishments over time and I think they are great but...
I don't think it was appropriate for you to discount the great post on "intercoolers" by Postal and just jump in with the "alcohol" solution since this thread started on intercooler choices. And now you guys are gonna have a pissing contest. Lets save that for the Chevy and Ford guys.
Your both smart and others on here, and thats why I'm here to learn from you guys. Lets move on.

Thanks for info,
Marty

Marty, me and Jason play a little rough.. We're friends and I like yanking on his chain.

My advice comes from personal testing and information gained thereof. If I made a living selling TTA alcohol kits, i'd be Bankrupt 2 years ago.

The thread is about IC choices. I gave the missing option and followed it with time slips, data logs, R&D, etc..

My car MAT temps are 190-200 at 26 PSI without alcohol. With alcohol they hover at ambient at 26 PSI. I have the data..

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170765

Unlike others that tout posting do this or do that and have NO DATA to support claims.. a picture is worth a thousand words. As far as I know.. fastest liquid IC tta has been a 10.9x on RACE GAS at 30+ PSI. You should see the nice tank Jason has in the hatch of his TTA for the Ice.

My other TTA I found somebody that wanted to swap even my stock setup for a FM. I was at a point with the car running low 11's with it. I figured it couldnt hurt.. My current car I bought already had it on there. I'd like to go to a stock location pretty soon just to prove a point. Rob Crissafulli ran 132 on his TTA years ago when it competed in an NMCA class for stock cars on a stock IC. I bet I can match that..

The power in these motors is in the heads.. then cam.. match a turbo to those.. you will have a fast car. You'll never get any airflow through any IC you mount on a TTA. The car is what it is.

Nobody makes an IC for our cars. You will need to fab to have one made. As long as your data supports making the change... invest your money accordingly and hope it yields a positive result. I'll shut up now showing how its done. :wink:

Notice the two TTA's(mine and JD's) I have running and their times.. and theyre not on jackstands or trailers.

 

[jjvites]

hmmmm guess I will add my .02's .. My wifes tweaked "stock" TTA ran 11.9s @115 back in 89 - 90 . I tried a water cooled intercooler and it did work slightly on a stocker but killed the car on the street . I kept it for 1 day and it was gone . Have another TTA here with a 44 turbo , blue top inj , ported heads . compete 3" exhaust (still have that crappy elbow on the turbo ) .. Car ran 11.3's @121 with all season tires and a closed exhaust .. I just put on Julio's Alky system and the car feels great .. I think it is one of the best "bang for the $$$" now .. hey things change since 1989 :biggrin: now how many guys are goin to push there cars past say..... a mid 11 at best ???? not many .. as far as I can see .
now what about a THDP ??? ya know everyone "needs" it to run 12's

Hey Grumpy,
Thanks for that real world experience, you will keep me from buying the "next" THDP before I need it .
But what would you use for an intercooler if:
1. You were gonna build a low 10 maybe high 9 second car.
2. Street driving not a priority except to the track (mine is 10 miles away) because the car was all stripped by previous owner who raced a Chevy 2.2. motor in low 9's.
3. Because of the limit factors of a TA what is the "practical" intercooler to build with?

Thanks,
Marty

 

[jjvites]

Marty, me and Jason play a little rough.. We're friends and I like yanking on his chain.

My advice comes from personal testing and information gained thereof. If I made a living selling TTA alcohol kits, i'd be Bankrupt 2 years ago.

The thread is about IC choices. I gave the missing option and followed it with time slips, data logs, R&D, etc..

My car MAT temps are 190-200 at 26 PSI without alcohol. With alcohol they hover at ambient at 26 PSI. I have the data..

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170765

Unlike others that tout posting do this or do that and have NO DATA to support claims.. a picture is worth a thousand words. As far as I know.. fastest liquid IC tta has been a 10.9x on RACE GAS at 30+ PSI. You should see the nice tank Jason has in the hatch of his TTA for the Ice.

My other TTA I found somebody that wanted to swap even my stock setup for a FM. I was at a point with the car running low 11's with it. I figured it couldnt hurt.. My current car I bought already had it on there. I'd like to go to a stock location pretty soon just to prove a point. Rob Crissafulli ran 132 on his TTA years ago when it competed in an NMCA class for stock cars on a stock IC. I bet I can match that..

The power in these motors is in the heads.. then cam.. match a turbo to those.. you will have a fast car. You'll never get any airflow through any IC you mount on a TTA. The car is what it is.

Nobody makes an IC for our cars. You will need to fab to have one made. As long as your data supports making the change... invest your money accordingly and hope it yields a positive result. I'll shut up now showing how its done. :wink:

Notice the two TTA's(mine and JD's) I have running and their times.. and theyre not on jackstands or trailers.

Julio,
Glad to hear you are friends, reminds me that I just slammed the phone on a buddy of mine over a fuel pump debate two days ago. :redface:
I like what alky can do as I used it before but not to the extent that you have. Good job. So even with alky in the equation i still need an intercooler to start with. Just as I posed the question to Grumpy , what is a good place to start. That was the reason for me posting if the V4 that I own would be an acceptable unit since it wont be street driven much. I don't wat to buy more intercooler than the car can use.

Thanks,
Marty