Premature Walbro Failure

[DR BOOST]

I still have a bad one in the tank. When I get it out, I'm going to disect this sob and see If I can't get to the bottom of this. :wink:

i carefully disected my first one with a 5lb sledge ...after which i gently placed it in safe storage in my garbage can. the new style inlets are not the only ones going bad.

 

[87GN_70GS]

Is there anything special that needs to be done to run the TTA/Syclone pump? Or is it a drop-in replcement? and what brand is it? (part number etc. if you have it)

Drops in. Is a little shorter so it needs a bit longer hose in place of the pulsator. Master/Airtex E3270. Available at Autozone, Advance, etc.

 

[TurboMonte 2]

I'm running over 20 PSI with a Syclone pump, SMC alky kit, 60 lb mototron injectors, exhaust upgrade, K&N 9" cone in my GN with 0 KNR. Got knock altough slight (1.2) in the same setup before with the Walbro and the alky spray maxed out.

How much over 20# boost are you running with Syclone pump & all being OK?-
And, have you found your max boost?--
And, what alky pump speed setting are you using???

Tks,,, Monte

 

[t-topflyer]

How much over 20# boost are you running with Syclone pump & all being OK?-
And, have you found your max boost?--
And, what alky pump speed setting are you using???

Tks,,, Monte

Direct drop-in pump autozone E3270. I've hit 23 PSI no knock with the stock turbo but have it adjusted now to 20 PSI just to be on the safe side. SMC alky kit is coming on at 5 PSI and max spray starts at 15 PSI. Timing set at 20/18. Haven't played with it any more to see what the limits are because I'm satisfied for the 1st time with the tune.

 

[TurboMonte 2]

Tks, I've been doing 23# w/ typ alky default 23/21 & non-progressive alky coming on (set @ 6=60%of max) @ 10# boost. Looks like I'd need cut back...

 

[t-topflyer]

Tks, I've been doing 23# w/ typ alky default 23/21 & non-progressive alky coming on (set @ 6=60%of max) @ 10# boost. Looks like I'd need cut back...

Maybe, maybe not....that's my personal comfort level....probably has some more room, but I'm not going to push the envelope since I am happy with the way it is. Another benefit/positive thing about these pumps is that they come with a 1 year warranty as long as you buy the sock to go with it (don't know why you wouldn't), but it is sold separate at ~$10.

When I bought this pump I figured that if I did have the same failure rate I was having with Walbros and their 30 day or lack of warranty alltogether I would be able to get about 20 pumps for the price of 1 within that year vs just wasting ~ $100 every 2 to 4 weeks on a Walbro. Fortunately so far I haven't had to take one out and into Autozone for a replacement but it is nice to know the option is there if it does happen. Knock on wood I'm at 4 months and counting.

 

[Mike Licht]

I was just informed that I should have some definite news and answers by the end of the week.
Mike

 

[TurboMonte 2]

I was just informed that I should have some definite news and answers by the end of the week.
Mike

Mike,

That's good news, as my TB is just now setting in driveway w/ me awaiting further info on how I should proceed--not wanting a quick "do-over"...

Monte

 

[Under Pressure]

28# boost on razor kit 21.5 degrees of timing on a Ta pump
Thanks Mike for the heads up.... they should do something thier Reputation in at stake.

 

[t-topflyer]

28# boost on razor kit 21.5 degrees of timing on a Ta pump

WOW really??? I haven't even touched on the potential of my setup then. Think I'll keep it where it is though just to be safe.

 

[upslp]

Ta pump

Hey guys so where do i get the Ta pump or syclone pump? Is this like a stock pump from like the auto parts? If so just go and ask for a pump for a Ta?

 

[t-topflyer]

Hey guys so where do i get the Ta pump or syclone pump? Is this like a stock pump from like the auto parts? If so just go and ask for a pump for a Ta?

AutoZone.com | Shopping | Parts | Product Detail - Fuel Pump

 

[87GN_70GS]

AutoZone.com | Shopping | Parts | Product Detail - Fuel Pump

On the older variant of that pump you could shim the relief spring for a little more juice. Not sure if it's still being made that way.

 

[Under Pressure]

Hey guys so where do i get the Ta pump or syclone pump? Is this like a stock pump from like the auto parts? If so just go and ask for a pump for a Ta?

Yea i had this ta pump(with the cheated bypass ) in a ttype about 11years ago and took it out for some reason ,well just got this gn and thinking the walbros where the way to go ,so i put 1 in 1800 miles later it crapped out so i put the 11 year old ta pump is back in and no issues yet i have this setup Te 44 ,27 -28 psi boost ,60 inj razor meth dual nozzle , Gen 2 ,lm-1,stock long block . Car went 11.70s on 93 octane spinning the tires at 117mph Ta pump seems to be fine. A/F is @ 10.9 to1.....

 

[SloGN]

guys i did some serious fuel pump testing this weekend-----i measured the amperage/wattage of a stock low mileage 87 pump and a new 340 at several voltages and pressures------i will post the data tomorrow when i can stop by the shop and get a disc of the data-----while i had the equipment set up i also did quite a few tests of popular fuel pumps-----i did pressure vs flow vs voltage and have both charts and graphs of the data-----from the general lack of good data i felt a lot of you guys would find it useful and interesting-----here's what i tested and why and how i did it in case anyone has any comments or questions-----to answer the question about the low voltage issue i did the following test------i took a dyno stand mounted GN engine with stock fuel rail and regulator and measured the rail pressure vs voltage vs amperage-------here is what it was measured with------powersupply was a Raytheon DCR 40-40B with remote sensing regulation feedback that guarantees terminal voltage of the test item to .01% accuracy reguardless of wire and connector voltage drops-----voltage was measured with an Audio Precision System Two with DCX-127 option that displays voltage to 5 decimal places with .00005% accuracy------current was also measured on the DCX with a Snap-on EETA 308-A low current probe-----while this device is not of the same class as the rest of the equipment used in the test we carefully calibrated it before each test with a Hewlett Packard 6902B amperage calibrator before each series of tests so the accuracy could be considered good to two decimal places-------pressure was measured with a Snap on Modis with the EEPV 302 AL pressure transducer with accuracy to .1%-------I do all my fuel related flow tests with actual "regular shell 87 octane gasoline" to eliminate the need for correction factors needed with test fluids-------the entire data will be posted tomorrow but for a brief here are some numbers--------stock pump @ 60PSI -- 9 volts --6.51 amps = 58.59 watts--------18 volts --9.10 amps = 163.8 watts -------walbro 340 @ 60 PSI 9 volts--7.78 amps = 70.02 watts-------18 volts---10.01 amps = 180.18 watts---------the charts will show all the data in one volt increments from 9V to 18V for 40, 50 and 60 PSI---------i also did complete fuel pressure curves for the following pumps-------two 86 stock pumps picked at random from a crate of about a jillion as well as a pair of 87 stock pumps from the same pile--------i tested several walbro pumps from what appears to be the three main groups-----from what i can tell there is the 242-250-278 series-----the 307-315-317 series and the 340-341-342 series ???????-------at any rate i tested a 242----a 307 and several 340's-------- flow tests on these used some of the previously mentioned equipment as well as a Dwyer model TF 1072 flowmeter and TM-2 totalizer------it reads in gallons per hour and is accurate to: 100 GPH 0.02%, 50 GPH 0.20%, 20 GPH 1.2%-----"it has been calibrated with Gasoline"-------stay tuned............RC

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View attachment 53241guys---------here are the first of the test charts----------these are the ones that graph voltage vs current vs pressure--------NOTICE that there are no FLOW numbers in this test-------the flow was whatever the pump did and whatever the regulator returned---------it clearly shows that low voltage does not increase electrical dissipation of the pump-------remember to get wattage (heating effect) we simply multiply volts X amps------i think this clearly demonstrates that low voltage is not a reason for pumps burning up-------not pumping fuel, yes-------but melting, no way---------i do have a weak but plausable theory--------notice on the walbro that the jump in current from 50 to 60 psi resulted in a much larger current increase than the jump from 40 to 50----------wish i had done a curve at 70 psi---------intuitively speaking i am sure that 70 would have shown some really big current numbers---------70 psi is not too far out of reality if your baseline is 45 ish and you run 25 lbs of boost-------are we running more boost overall these days than we used to????------i have a friend that runs 25 all the time with pump gas now that he has alcohol injection----------i doubt these relatively small pumps were ever intended to run at close to 15 amps for very long------combination of high turbo boost and volt boosters could be a recipe for problems????.....................RC

guys---------here are some flow numbers----------horizontal scale is pressure in PSI----vertical scale is flow in GPH-----tests are run at 12-13-14 and 15 volts-------------i'll probably break them up into several posts-----------starting with a pair of 86 and 87 pumps from good running low mileage cars---------good numbers for a baseline comparison to performance pumps----------under each graph is a chart with the numerical flow values------- all numbers were rounded off to the nearest gallon-----------86 pumps are engraved 2699 and 87 pumps are engraved 2661----------not any significant difference except for the electrical connectors.............RC

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guys-------here are a few walbro pump tests---------about the history of the pumps-------most of them are new stock from ATR--------about a year ago when they had the auction i bought most all the buick related items-------i literally came home with three trucks loaded to the brim--------in the midst there were several cases of walbro fuel pumps--------i have high confidence that they are "real" and not counterfeit but i cannot guarantee it-------please don't hesitate to ask questions of anything that you don't think is clear--------i realize that as with most mass produced items that there are variations even if it is an ISO certified facility-------without doing LOTS of similar tests and averaging the data i cannot guarantee that there will not be variations from the results that i am showing------i can guarantee the the numbers that i measured are extremely accurate subject to a 1 GPH rounding---at this time i cannot quantify what if any break-in or long term use has on pump performance-------first chart is a 242 series pump--------second is a 307 series-----third and fourth is a pair of 340 pumps-------fifth and sixth is a pair of reds pumps that appear to be 340's but have the numbers ground off so i can't really say what they are for sure------they do exhibit some really good numbers at high pressure compared to all the 340's i have measured--------one of them was used and the other was right out of the box----------anyone have any pumps that you would like to have measured i will be glad to do it for you OR if you are planning on stopping by my shop on the oct weekend of 17/18 for The GM Turbo 6 club event you are more than welcome to bring your pump and have it measured as you watch...............RC

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here's a straggler that wouldn't fit on the last post.....RC

Guys

I conducted a test of the autozone E3270 fuel pump that some have gave good reviews about in this thread. So myself and Richard Clark flow tested this pump earlier tonite. I was going into this test with a open mind but having my doubts on it really being a quality performance fuel pump.

We didn't test the the amp draw on this pump for the fact of the pump didn't flow well enuff int he first test session to warrant anymore testing of it.


@ 12 volts of regulated power.

30psi--34GPH 40psi--28.5GPH 50psi--23GPH 60psi--16GPH 70psi--4.5GPH

@ 13 volts of regulated power

30psi--40GPH 40psi--36GPH 50psi--28GPH 60psi--22GPH 70psi--13GPH

@ 14 volts of regulated power

30psi--44GPH 40psi--39GPH 50psi--33GPH 60psi--28GPH 70psi--20.5

@ 15 volts of regulated power for those with a volt booster

30psi--48GPH 40psi--42GPH 50psi--38GPH 60psi--32.5GPH 70psi--23.5


None of the tests could we mantain a solid 80psi of pressure due to the pressure relief valve in the pump bypassing the fuel.


This pump was purchased this evening @ our local autozone here in burlington nc again part # E-3270 list price was 90bucks if someone wants it they can have it for 70bucks plus shipping it has a total of maybe 10 minutes of run time.

pat broughton

 

[A2000RICH]

this pump was not even as good as a stock GN pump-------this is clearly not an alternative to the rash of pump failures------how anyone feels comfortable using it with a modified engine puzzles me-------look at how poorly it performs compared to some of the better high performance pumps------of course it is better than a dead pump if you are stranded in gator alley but you dont want to be building boost with it...........RC

 

[SloGN]

Yea i had this ta pump(with the cheated bypass ) in a ttype about 11years ago and took it out for some reason ,well just got this gn and thinking the walbros where the way to go ,so i put 1 in 1800 miles later it crapped out so i put the 11 year old ta pump is back in and no issues yet i have this setup Te 44 ,27 -28 psi boost ,60 inj razor meth dual nozzle , Gen 2 ,lm-1,stock long block . Car went 11.70s on 93 octane spinning the tires at 117mph Ta pump seems to be fine. A/F is @ 10.9 to1.....

if you didn't have the dual nozzle alky kit there is noway that pump could feed your engine for that kind of HP. The alky is a fuel system.

I would be very curious to know what your base fuel pressure is set @ when your acheiving those boost levels of 27-28 psi.

if you have your FP set @ 42 line off plus the 28 psi of boost you should be making a constant 70psi @ the regulator. that is the outer limits of decent fuel flow capacity. 14 volts @ 70 psi it's only moving 20.5 GPH.


Whats is your injector duty cycle @ with your current tune. I would be safe to say that pump is will not support what your doing if you were to put in race gas and try and tune it without the other fuel system(alky) thats when you will see how that pump is really keeping up.

 

[t-topflyer]

What are we to do then when the lab testing shows the performance pumps to be superior to the stock GN pump and both certainly superior to the Autozone E3270, but real life testing in an actual car with various performance setups indicates otherwise?

 

[SGRIM]

I have tried to stay out of this thread, but you can bet your bottom dollar I will NEVER use a pump that has not been proven. 1st guy to blow a motor due to lack of fuel pressure from a BS pump it will not be fun...

I would take Mr. Clark's findings 100% . He doesn't do this for ANY reason other than to help...

I think there is a problem here, and hopefully with everyone's help we can get to the bottom of this. I got a 340 in my TFS car so I am just as interested as you guys...

 

[A2000RICH]

What are we to do then when the lab testing shows the performance pumps to be superior to the stock GN pump and both certainly superior to the Autozone E3270, but real life testing in an actual car with various performance setups indicates otherwise?

an answer to your question------an objective scientific test compared to a "seat of the pants" evaluation ????------i'll take the scientific test every time------are you guys really monitoring your fuel pressure with these pumps ?????-----what kind of power are you really producing-----what size injectors and what is their pulse width-----thats what really determines if the pump is really working for you-------the volume of gas needed to produce a given amount of power is a well quantified number and either it can do it safely or it can't------and there is always the third and absolute worst answer to your question-------perhaps the pump i purchased last night is a "weak" one and some of the guys that have posted about this pump being good got "strong" ones------meaning there is a variation in them and they need to be sorted to find a good one------how good do you feel if thats the answer to your question ??????-------i have no horse in this race but i'd like to know the answer to the apparent walbro problem ------BUT i'm not gonna go out and buy a couple thousand dollars worth of AZ pumps to do a test of their quality and consistency------the $90 i wasted last night was enough for me-------for sale: Turbo Buick forum certified AZ superpump----used only 10 minutes only $70-----get it quick before its gone !!!!!!.............RC