Innovate Motorsports wb02. Anyone using it?

[Six_Silver]

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/

I subscribe to their mailing list and the guys seem to be having pretty good luck with it. Anyone here using one? It uses the cheap Bosch LSU4 sensor, so if it burns out from the leaded fuel, you can replace it for under $35!

Plus, it will soon have RPM and boost logging. Pretty cool if you ask me.

 

[Six_Silver]

TTT

 

[tminer]

No experience with it. I do have the NTK based diy wb02. I read that the LSU4 sensor is not as good, but still effective. I believe that the issue was response time, not accuracy. But the NTK is $170 or so. Looks like that unit will work with either sensor, so it would only be a $35 gamble if you needed to upgrade to the NTK.

Tom

 

[Two Lane]

VERY NICE!!

12 frames per second, 44 minutes logging of 6 parameters, with EGT and more coming in January...AWESOME!

I bet they will be super back-logged after the SEMA show (early Nov.), so ordering now would probably be wise for anyone wanting one.

 

[Intercooler]

Seems like a pretty nice unit! I just wish someone out there would give feedback. It seems their are a bunch of WB units available but little talk about them. I would like to go with one if I could find a drop-in. This looks like one.

 

[S10xGN]

Curious - is it necessary to add a separate bung or could one pull the stock O2 sensor and run this unit on a temporary basis? I mean, will the engine run OK with no (stock) O2 input?

 

[Six_Silver]

Originally posted by S10xGN
Curious - is it necessary to add a separate bung or could one pull the stock O2 sensor and run this unit on a temporary basis? I mean, will the engine run OK with no (stock) O2 input?

S10xGN, it depends on what you are using for fuel management. If you are using the stock ECM, your chip would need to be burned to run in full-time open loop. The Extender chips have the option built in, but you must manually choose full time open loop. I believe Steve Y's Max-Effort chips run full time open loop as well.

In a scenario such as the ones above, the stock O2 can be removed without having any effect on the car. You would still be able to see what the O2 sensor is doing on a scan tool when it is plugged in, but the computer will not use it. The WB02 sensor should be placed downstream (after) the turbo in the downpipe. The stock O2 is located upstream (before) the turbo, so a WBO2 should not be placed there.

However, if full time open loop is not availible, the stock O2 must be used.


Intercooler, click this link to be added to the LM1 discussion email. This is where I get all my information from. Over the last 3 weeks, the group has exploded with growth and there are a lot of guys using it. Some great questions out there, and a lot of guys have used many different WBO2's and are able to give us a comparison between them and this unit. HTH's.

 

[ijames]

Thanks for the link. This unit looks very very nice. Does anyone know how well the sensor stands up to leaded fuel?

 

[Intercooler]

I wish someone around me had that unit. If the sensors are $45.00 a pop that isn't too bad. Steve Yaklin said I should get the WB O2 and for setup purpose. Use it to get the right A/F for street and race in combination with my EGT to the point that it is like a Science.... then yank the WB off and just use EGT to save the sensor when running leaded fuel. In other words if you make up your mind you want to run 20 PSI with 21 degrees on the street with alcohol log your EGT/Knock/WB readings for that setting then do your 25 PSI with 24 degrees timing race settings with C-16 and you are done. The tune shouldn't be way off using this method when you make swaps.

 

[Six_Silver]

Originally posted by ijames
Does anyone know how well the sensor stands up to leaded fuel?

I asked this exact question to Peter Gargano (from Tech Edge) and this is what he told me:

Q: Do either of the sensors (Bosch LSU4 part#'s: 6 066 and 7 057) work well with leaded fuel (as opposed to un-leaded)?

A: Lead will clog the sensors in as low as 100 miles, but maybe you'll get several 1,000 miles - YMMV

Q: Several folks have been using the NTK L1H1 sensor with leaded fuel and have not had any problems, even for several thousand miles and still going strong. Do you have any explaination as to why the Bosch LSU4 (6 066 and 7 057) sensors will not tolerate leaded fuel?

A: Please don't assume that because I say the LSU may die within 100 miles, and your friends are using leaded fuel with an NTK and it's apparently fine, that the LSU is inferior.

If you had asked me about the NTK I would have given the same answer.


I also called and spoke with a representitive from Innovate a few weeks ago. I asked the same question above that they told me that the sensor will get lazy after enough lead has gone through the sensor. They also told me that they have a few cars that run leaded race fuel at all times, and even some alcohol burning cars that use it to. Both have not had any problems. He couldnt give me an estimate on life of the sensor, but you should be able to get your car very very close to a good tune within 5-7 passes. Im sure the sensor will last at least that long...

I am going to be buying this unit, but will not be able to test it until the spring. There was a group buy on one of the LS1 boards and also on a few other boards. So there are quite a few units out there now, but Im still waiting to hear discussion on one that has been used already with feedback from some people.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by ijames
Thanks for the link. This unit looks very very nice. Does anyone know how well the sensor stands up to leaded fuel?

The Bosch WBs have been used in some of the endurance races, ie LeMans, etc.. The newest C5 factory vettes also use them.

The trick with any and all WBs is the heater circuit.
While close the L1H1s, Bosch and L2H2, are different. Contrary to the belief of some vendors, you just can't swap them out. So the ones designed to operate more then one sensor maybe less then optimum.

Until any WB is to operating temp., they are all subject to lead fouling. Rich startup routines, will shorten the sensors life. Poor Sensor heater circuits will also shorten their life.

When purchasing expensive items it pays to do you homework and figure out really good guestions. The manufacturers that just pirate the info., and slap together a product aren't very likely to have much if any real engineering experience.

Buying WBs is definetly a buyer be where situation.

I bought a commercial WB, and in less then 15 hours it killed the sensor, on unleaded gas. The early death was from a poorly designed heater circuit.

So far the only ones I'd spend money on are the DIY, Bailey and FJO. That's not to say there aren't others, but these seemed to have worked well, so far.

 

[S10xGN]

Originally posted by Six_Silver
The WB02 sensor should be placed downstream (after) the turbo in the downpipe. The stock O2 is located upstream (before) the turbo, so a WBO2 should not be placed there.

However, if full time open loop is not availible, the stock O2 must be used.

Thanks James,

I have a stock ECM, but it looks like installing a bung in the down-pipe will be a lot easier than on the up-pipe. I will consider this.

 

[Two Lane]

DENSO WB 02 SENSOR?

Has anyone used the Denso equivalent of the "best" (?) WB 02 sensor?

Seems the Denso brand withstands the effects of leaded fuel noticeably better than some other brands when replacing the factory 02 sensor.

Any trial comparisons of the Denso versus ------?

TIA!!

 

[ijames]

I read the LM1 mailing list archives and found this:

Bosch rates the sensor as follows:

.6 grams lead/liter: 20,000 km
.4 grams lead/liter: 30,000 km
.15 grams lead/liter: 60,000 km

HTH,

Jon
Also, the lead acts to slow the sensor response in a gradual, predictable manner so you can watch the sensor die and know it's time for replacement. I think I want one of these, bad .

 

[Two Lane]

Considering that many TRs only see leaded fuel at the track, the Bosch could have a very long life.

 

[Six_Silver]

Re: DENSO WB 02 SENSOR?

Originally posted by Two Lane
Has anyone used the Denso equivalent of the "best" (?) WB 02 sensor?

Seems the Denso brand withstands the effects of leaded fuel noticeably better than some other brands when replacing the factory 02 sensor.

Any trial comparisons of the Denso versus ------?

TIA!!

TwoLane, good point!

I have used the Denso with excellent results. A few hundered miles on straight leaded racing fuel, and it is still very active. I would be very intrested if Denso made an equivalant sensor to the Bosch or NTK sensor.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by ijames
I read the LM1 mailing list archives and found this:

Bosch rates the sensor as follows:

.6 grams lead/liter: 20,000 km
.4 grams lead/liter: 30,000 km
.15 grams lead/liter: 60,000 km

That's with the assumption of the proper heater.
Run the heater ramp up too slow and I'd bet those number drop.

And is that using Euro fuel?.
For decades the stock GM sensors worked in markets where there was no unleaded fuel.

 

[ijames]

So do you have any evidence one way or the other about how well the lm1 heater circuit works, or is this just a general caution?

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by ijames
So do you have any evidence one way or the other about how well the lm1 heater circuit works, or is this just a general caution?

Personally?
No,
But I have friends that worry about those things, and they from time to time share their concerns, and finds with me.

The Sensor doesn't have a heater circuit per se. It takes an external controller to handle the current, voltage, as it warms up.

 

[ijames]

Originally posted by bruce
Personally?
No,
But I have friends that worry about those things, and they from time to time share their concerns, and finds with me.

The Sensor doesn't have a heater circuit per se. It takes an external controller to handle the current, voltage, as it warms up.

Don't be so coy. Have those friends said anything specific about the lm1 or not? [I don't think anyone was saying the sensor itself had a heater circuit built in - that's all part of the lm1 controller.]

Russ, I think you definitely need to add a bung in the downpipe, well after the turbo. Otherwise the sensor will overheat. They go into this some in the manual, and its been discussed a few times on their mailing list.