Innovate Motorsports wb02. Anyone using it?

[ijames]

The box arrived last week. It is very pretty. They included a 9 volt battery (runs the display and control stuff; they use a cigarette lighter adaptor to power the O2 sensor heater) but cleverly left the meter turned on so the battery was stone dead on arrival . I like the package and am still impressed with the features (without acutally using it ). Since you must turn on the sensor just before cranking the engine, I wish there was a way to wire it in to make that automatic - there may be but I need to study the manual. I haven't pulled the downpipe yet to weld on the bung. The sensor needs to be as far downstream as possible, so I plan to put it at the end of my thdp, probably in the last curve before the cat neck and clamp. Right now I'm thinking I'll run the cord in the passenger door for temporary tuning, or if I decide to semi-permanently install it I'll fish it through the firewall. I'll post more when I do more, but right now I'm more concerned with the fact that my trans is shifting funny and less concerned about testing the lm1, sorry.

 

[klatinn]

Hi,

Regarding Bosch LSU4.2 location:

The Bosch LSU4.2 sensor has a specified housing temperature (at the bung) of max 560C. Exceeding this can cause problems because the heater in the sensor can no longer be precisely controlled. It does not destroy the sensor (typically), but AFR readings will be inaccurate because of uncontrolled sensor temperatures.
On many turbo cars the bung temperatures are higher than that. Same can happen with superchargers, wrapped/coated headers and pipes.
Narrow band O2 sensors are not very sensitive to heat, because they only need to work as a switch, not as a measurement device.
In many cases the bung temperatures of a NBO2 sensor location are much higher than the Bosch sensor can tolerate.
We (Innovate) found that although the sensor head can handle up to 1560F EGT, bung temperatures are typically the bigger problem.
That's why we recommend a heat sink for high bung temp applications.
The sensor head is temperature controlled. If heated to or above its operating temperature it can no longer be controlled (the sensor heater cannot cool). In that case in an OEM application for the sensor (closed loop WB control) the ECU goes open loop. A WB meter cannot go open loop (unfortunately) and either becomes inaccurate or shows an error (the LM-1 shows an error).

As for warmup of the sensor:
Bruce mentioned earlier that that is key to the lifespan of the sensor. True. The LM-1 uses a controlled heatup profile at the max. allowable heatup rate that Bosch specifies for the sensor. Heatup time in room temperature air is about 20sec.

Sensors get destroyed for four reasons:

1. Carbon fouling
Happens when the sensor is left unpowered during engine warmup or running continuoulsy at excessively rich mixtures (<10 AFR).

2. Lead fouling
Lead will at any temperature over time coat the pump cell ceramics and prevent it from working.

3. Penetrants
Things like WD-40, even traces of it, will destroy the sensor instantly because of a chemical reaction between the penetrant and the sensor ceramics. The sensors get their reference air through the cable sheath. Penetrants can work their way through the cable into the sensor. After all, thats what penetrants are for.

4. Running the sensor outside spec'd temperatures.
This does not destroy the sensor instantly, but reduces its lifespan significantly.

Hope this answers some of the questions that came up on this thread.

Regards,
Klaus

 

[klatinn]

Hi,

I forgot to comment on the differences between NTK and Bosch sensors:

1. Response speed
Measured by the sensors own response delay between pump cell and sense cell:

Bosch <5 msec
NTK ~50msec

2. Back Pressure sensitivity

Bosch sensor has about 1/3 the NTK's pressure sensitivity.
Pressure sensitivity means that the sensor reads richer than reality in a rich mixture, leaner in lean mixture.

3. Temperature sensitivity

NTK sensor is fairly insensitive to temperature either at bung or EGT, can run with constant heater voltage.

Bosch sensor is very sensitive and needs to have precisely controlled cell temperatures.

4. Heatup time

NTK ~60 seconds
Bosch ~20 seconds


The LM-1 will require completely different firmware when switching between Bosch and NTK. Either firmware is optimized for the respective sensor. Both are included in the LM-1 kit and can be uploaded.

Display update rate of the LM-1:
1/3 second (AFR averaged over 1/3 second)

Logging update rate:
1/12 second (AFR averaged over 1/12 second)

Sample rate, analog output rate and 'bar-graph display' rate:
Sensor response controlled between 50/sec to 400/sec depending on AFR and sensor age.

Regards,
Klaus

 

[Sleeper]

Thanks for stopping by Klaus, and for clarifying the info on the overheating issues, as well as the specs between the two sensors.

Paul

 

[S10xGN]

^^^

Bringing this one back up, waiting on you, Carl!

 

[ijames]

Well, I got my MAF moved to the middle of the uppipe last week, got two passes last Sunday to see if I could see a performance difference, and my trans for some reason has been shifting okay ever since just before I took my trans guy for a test ride, so this weekend I'm pulling the dp to weld on the bung and installing my new turbo - will post when I have results.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by klatinn

Bosch <5 msec
NTK ~50msec

4. Heatup time
NTK ~60 seconds
Bosch ~20 seconds

These vary from what I've seen.
On the DIY-EFI that had much better response numbers on the NTK.
A proper heater can take a NTK to full hot in about 33 seconds. Best I've seen on a Bosch was the PLX and it was over 25 sec. I'm talking until useful and meaningful display data which may from just measuring time for warm up, to operating temp..

 

[klatinn]

Hi Bruce,

On the DIY-EFI that had much better response numbers on the NTK.

I am talking about the internal delay of the sensor between a change of pump current to change of measurement cell output for a constant AFR gas, not the delay between gas change and measurement cell output. The delay I stated is the impulse response of the control input (pump current) to measurement output.

A proper heater can take a NTK to full hot in about 33 seconds. Best I've seen on a Bosch was the PLX and it was over 25 sec

Warmup times are greatly influenced by additional heating by exhaust gas and can be shorter than what I stated. The numbers I posted are warmup times for the sensor in 20C still gas, sensor at 20C, heating to full operating temp (useful measurements). Warmup cycle controlled to max warmup ramp as per respective manufacturer specs. In an actual engine situation (additional heating by exhaust gas) the Bosch can warm up in as low as 10 sec while still staying within the warmup ramp specs. The NTK can warmup in 33 secs or less. But these numbers are very much dependent on the engine situation (rpm, EGT) and therefore hard to compare and control.

Regards,
Klaus

 

[ijames]

Russ - I posted some comments in the affordable wideband thread. Kind of forgot which thread I had open when I started typing. I like the unit a lot so far. There's a couple of little gotcha's in the software. You have to click on a slider to select it, then you can use the left and right arrows to go back and forth. I got it to work once but didn't realize why, then later after loading more data I couldn't get it to work for the longest time, sigh . It's kind of neat to see the normal closed loop operation as a little almost-sine wave of afr. The data display is pretty minimal but gets the job done. You are supposed to be able to open the data files in Excel and analyze and graph to your hearts content, but I haven't done that yet. I've ordered an rpm input cable but don't have it yet so no report on how hard it is to teach it our engine. I plan to plug it into the tach connector behind the alternator. Biggest thing so far is that when you put the unit into serial mode to download data to the pc, it turns off the heater so you can't keep the engine running. I was copilot and wanted to look at some data while we kept driving, but I guess that's a nono. Oh, the bung they supply is mild steel, not stainless steel. We went ahead and welded it on a stainless THDP testpipe but plan to replace it with stainless as soon as I get some bungs ordered from HRPartsnStuff. It was much easier to R&R the test pipe than the down pipe so that's where we put the bung.

 

[S10xGN]

Thanks for the update, Carl! I just got my bung installed. I used an 18mm sparkplug 'saver' ($3.00 or so), and an old Ford sparkplug for a 'plug' (free). Welded it in right ahead of the cat converter location, about 4ft from the turbo outlet. Since I can't REALLY weld <LOL>, I ended up buying an 18mm tap to chase the threads after I buggered them up! I'll prolly wait 'til after the holidays to order...

 

[ijames]

Look at Taffy's ad in the advertiser's forum if you want to save $20.

 

[Six_Silver]

ijames, any updates?

 

[ijames]

I received my rpm cable but have not used it yet. I've been hibernating for the winter (and I'm still sore from minor surgery a couple of weeks ago, sigh). Going to the track tomorrow, mother nature willing, to get a feel for the new turbo, then I'll start tuning some more.