Kirbans ZDDP

I've been doing it like Rich posted for a long time. It works. If I don't plan on actually driving the vehicle for a period of time I won't start it.

Only addition is that I place a can of desiccant in the vehicle. Had one mold up pretty bad one winter. Ever since with the desiccant the vehicles interior stays dryer and actually smell fresher.

The battery tender is a good idea. Sooner or later I'll get some. I do hook up the charger from time to time. But it isn't the best method.

RemoveBeforeFlight
 
Here's some interesting reading from Blackstone. It's their latest newsletter. Not sure how much of it is accurate, but most of it made sense to me...

newsletter
 
Here's some interesting reading from Blackstone. It's their latest newsletter. Not sure how much of it is accurate, but most of it made sense to me...

newsletter

it is a good article and i believe it 99%------if it was 1992 when it was written------i believe it would have still been correct up until the early 2000's--------but his assumptions that all major brands of oil contain adequate amounts of zinc (his way of describing zddp) are no longer true-------1992 was an era of SG motor oil which was totally ok for our TR's as evidenced by the fact that we had no oil related problems and neither did anyone else-------SH was fine and so was SJ-----SL was borderline and SM would not be totally bad if it had at least what everyone thinks it is supposed to have-------ie .08 max/.06 min phosp------but thats just not the case based on recent tests of many major brands of oil that have extremely low levels of phosp-------that means no zddp--------the report clearly states that zddp is important and that it works but makes the assumption that your oil already has it-------sort of like today where we just assume childrens toys are safe and free of lead and pet food is safe--------anyone that knows me personally knows that my cars and my dog are my kids-------- and i'm not assuming anything...................RC
 
pet food is safe--------anyone that knows me personally knows that my cars and my dog are my kids-------- and i'm not assuming anything...................RC


Funny you put it that way, my wife is a Veterinarian, and the big pet food deal kept her busy to say to least.

Thanks for your input on the newsletter, I just rcvd it today via email and figured if I posted it, you would comment on it.

Dave
 
Funny you put it that way, my wife is a Veterinarian, and the big pet food deal kept her busy to say to least.

Dave
my dog hasn't had a bite of dog food since that debacle---------i order extra food from restaurants for her and i am her official food taster............RC
 
Found this on GM's Tech link page:

The Starburst Oil Myth -- The latest myth promoted by the antique and collector car press says that new Starburst/ API SM engine oils (called Starburst for the shape of the symbol on the container) are bad for older engines because the amount of anti-wear additive in them has been reduced. The anti-wear additive being discussed is zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP).


Before debunking this myth, we need to look at the history of ZDP usage. For over 60 years, ZDP has been used as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability.

ZDP was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range passed a corrosion test introduced in 1942.

In the mid-1950s, when the use of high-lift camshafts increased the potential for scuffing and wear, the phosphorus level contributed by ZDP was increased to the 0.08% range.

In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (called sequences), two of which were valve-train scuffing and wear tests.

A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.

By the 1970s, increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in high-load engines, which otherwise could thicken to a point where the engine could no longer pump it. Because ZDP was an inexpensive and effective antioxidant, it was used to place the phosphorus level in the 0.10% range.

However, phosphorus is a poison for exhaust catalysts. So, ZDP levels have been reduced over the last 10-15 years. It's now down to a maximum of 0.08% for Starburst oils. This was supported by the introduction of modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.

Enough history. Let's get back to the myth that Starburst oils are no good for older engines. The argument put forth is that while these oils work perfectly well in modern, gasoline engines equipped with roller camshafts, they will cause catastrophic wear in older engines equipped with flat-tappet camshafts.

The facts say otherwise.

Backward compatability was of great importance when the Starburst oil standards were developed by a group of experts from the OEMs, oil companies, and oil additive companies. In addition, multiple oil and additive companies ran no-harm tests on older engines with the new oils; and no problems were uncovered.

The new Starburst specification contains two valve-train wear tests. All Starburst oil formulations must pass these two tests.

- Sequence IVA tests for camshaft scuffing and wear using a single overhead camshaft engine with slider finger (not roller) followers.

- Sequence IIIG evaluates cam and lifter wear using a V6 engine with a flat-tappet system, similar to those used in the 1980s.



Those who hold onto the myth are ignoring the fact that the new Starburst oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950s. (True, they do contain less ZDP than the oils that solved the oil thickening issues in the 1960s, but that's because they now contain high levels of ashless antioxidants not commercially available in the 1960s.)

Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that new oils will wear out older engines.

Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will probably take 60 or 70 years for this one to die also.

- Thanks to Bob Olree – GM Powertrain Fuels and Lubricants Group
 
Is there a link for that article?

-Bob C.

It was someting that my Chevy dealer sent to me. It's on the gm dealerworld website, but I don't have a username/password to access it. Any GM dealer can get to the GM techlink page from dealerworld.

mark
 
I use the same conventional oil as Chris posted earlier, the Valvoline VV850 (Not Street Legal, 10/30) with no additives. Any problems with just using this alone???? I havent noticed any problems as of yet...:confused:
 
Read what Mr. Clark posted in post #125 of this thread. I have also spoken to Richard by phone, and he has convinced me that Valvoline race oil is not a good choice for the street. Inasmuch as I presently have a roller cam, I don't use it any more anyway.
I will tell you that I developed very serious blowby in my flat tappet engine and I wonder if the Valvoline was in any way part of the demise of that engine. :confused:
 
This is what Valvoline sent me:

That is true about the "NOT STREET LEGAL" Racing Oil. That and our VR1 Racing Oils still contain the highest amounts of ZDDP available. Please keep in mind that SL and SM API Service Ratings, have nothing to do with the Zinc and Phosphorus. This is the main confusion in the world of ZDDP. This is proven with the VR1 Racing Oil being SM rated, but still containing the Zinc and Phosphorus. The oil industry per ILSAC had to only decrease the levels of ZDDP (Zinc) in certain viscosity to meet new emission standards. The ILSAC rated oils still have an average of .085 levels of zinc. Testing has shown on standard OEM set ups that used mild camshafts will still get plenty of protection from the new rated oils. There is an exception when it comes to extreme aftermarket applications. If you have a high performance solid lifter set up with an aggressive cam then you will need to use a quality Racing Oil or Fleet Oil for break in and normal usage. These oils have an increased level of Zinc that will range from .14 to .16 and will provide plenty of protection.
The consensus in the industry is that the current chemical limits of the GF-4/SM category are still sufficient to protect all "street" engines, including older flat tappet engines. The engine tests required for a GF-4/SM product is just as severe as the older, higher ZDDP allowed category. For the special applications (aggressive cams, high HP racing motors, etc) where the customer needs more ZDDP protection, our NON-GF-4 products still contain the higher levels (such as VR-1 and "not street legal" racing).

Yes, using either one will be fine, but keep this in mind. VR1 Racing Oil is recommended for 3 months/3,000 miles, while the "NSL" oil is only recommended for 500 mile oil changes.
 
Found this on GM's Tech link page:

The Starburst Oil Myth --
What they fail to recognize is the problem with the TR's #3 exhaust lifter which spins at about 1/3rd the rate as the others. When you have that problem, the amount of additive in the starburst oil is NOT enough. And they keep talking about levels of phosphorous but are totally failing to mention zinc, which is a sacrificial layer or metal. What are the levels of zinc in the starburst oils? Why arent they addressing it? The Z in ZDP stands for.....ZINC.
I can see in my crystal ball, all the execs at big warranty/insurance firms calling headquarters of the big 3, frantically begging for damage control because of the masses of warranty claims over the past 5 years. Remember, more doctors smoke Camels than any other brand because smoking does not cause cancer.
And as for only radical cammed motors having the issue, there were plenty of poeple with low spring pressure and stock cams who were wiping lobes.
As for the post above which talks about GF-4 oils.....what we're concerned with are CF-4 and CIF-4. Rotella meets those demands, as do royal purple, redline, valvoline syn and quaker state "Q" racing/offroad type oils.
 
I'd like to comment on a few of your thoughts

now theres a product named ZDDP?

---------its not named ZDDP-----its ZddPlus-----

"Why not just use a product WITH ZDDP"-------because most of the oils that contain adequate amounts of zddp have other characteristics that make them less than ideal for our cars according to the original requirements specified by the manufacturer-------with the exception of higher priced "exotic oils" that cost much more than conventional oils

"I got about 2mpg better mileage with royal purple"-------while i certainly believe royal purple is good oil i have to wonder-------are you sure about the calibration of your odometer or your math???-------considering that the API rates oils as energy conserving if they can extract a mere 2% in mileage increase that seems pretty amazing-------the fact is that even then most of the savings is due to lower viscosity ratings that reduce pumping losses and not actually friction in the bearings----------in several daily driver GNs consisting of various amounts of city and hwy driving i average in the 20 mpg range-------2 mpg would amount to a ginormous 10% increase-------i doubt any reasonable person could believe that-------i do believe if that were even close to true that GM, Ford and virtually every other manufacturer would quickly make "royal purple" factory fill cause that would be the single most cost effective mileage increase since the introduction of CAFE ratings--------and the API would certainly make a "class all of its own" for "super-duper energy conserving"

"Mobil 1 drained out like tar after 4000. That means the oil is burning"-------Mobil 1 like tar?????--------in the last 20 years i have run hundreds of gallons of Mobil 1 through my personal cars including many of my several dozen GN's and i have never witnessed such a thing------doesn't seem possible since the high temperature rating of Mobil 1 is easily the equal of any other synthetics-----the ability to handle extremes of temperature at the high and low end is the single greatest attribute of synthetics to begin with-------if Mobil 1 could not handle the temps of a GN then there is virtually NO WAY that any one could even consider a conventional oil in a GN and we all know that most GN's are run with conventional oil with no problems and they were in fact originally specified from the factory to use conventional SF oil

I've used Mobil 1 since 1990 in my WE4, everytime I changed it, every 3000 miles, it still looked unused. I have 77,000 miles on it and never had a mechanical problem yet. (knock on wood!)
 
Ok, so the question for me is what Conventional oil (10/30) can I put in my daily driver and not have to worry about anything ?? (i.e. putting additives, etc.)????:confused:
 
the reason for zddp is because it is being/ has been removed from the oils .

its purpose to make oil like it used to be in 1987.

i wouldn't add any additives to my oil except zddp
 
ZDDP in Additives

Click on the SFR100 on the bottom of the article, that looks like good stuff and is cheaper. Looks like they did alot of testing on this stuff also. Anyone ever use this stuff? :confused:
 
I can see in my crystal ball, all the execs at big warranty/insurance firms calling headquarters of the big 3, frantically begging for damage control because of the masses of warranty claims over the past 5 years. Remember, more doctors smoke Camels than any other brand because smoking does not cause cancer.

I dont think that will be a problem. It hasn't been 5 years yet be we do ZERO warranty claims for cam and lifter failures. On the other hand GM hasn't used a flat tappet lifter since 1996 either if that tells you something on your prediction. I think it has been established that roller lifters do not suffer from the lower ZDP levels. Now there are a lot of import based OHC motors that still use some type of flat tappet lifter. What about them? A quick google comes up again with ZERO cam failures.

Okay everybody. Reread that GM oil myth story. They haven't eliminated ZDP. The levels are just lower.Everybody is running around thinking they have eliminated Zinc from oil. They haven't. Sounds like(as far as GM geos) the engineers already know what the lowest level of ZDP that can be used with out massive engine component failure. I've said it a million times. Why does everybody think the factory guys are idiots? How long do you think a company would be in buisiness with a reputation for building motors that dont last past their warranty period?

Here's my tip of the day. Check under the hood of any late model car. Most if not everybody recommends a 5W-30 or 10W-30 weight for the gas engines. I'm thinking if you want a higher than average ZDP level than go with a weight not recommended like 20W-50 or 15W-40 or even the dirty 10W-40 stuff. Either that or mail order some oil from a 3rd world country that doesn't have the EPA to worry about. :rolleyes:

IMO the number one reason for a cam failure is because of mismatched components or improper break in procedures. I've been running Mobil One in my turbo cars for the last 20 years or so. Not one oil related problem. Not one! I'll keep my opinion of ZDDP to myself!:mad:
 
The flat lobe mystery was solved about 2-3 years ago. 4 out of 5 lifter manufacturers went out of business...the companies that sold to OEM's. A bunch of chinese/taiwanese companies showed up (no doubt some american dude trying to extract every last fraction of a cent of profit) and started making cheap lifters with horrible metallurgy. When you rub to metal surfaces against one another, even with a film of oil, the softer metal will wear. If the lobes have a lower rockwell rating than the lifter base, the lobe will go. At the same time, the EPA forced the oil guys to drop pollution causing, and catalytic converter destroying additives. Given everyone went roller, it wasnt a problem. They through in just enough additives to keep the old flat tappets alive, in ideal conditions. So mass numbers of failures were happening around the world because ideal conditions are as common as common sense.
As far as the mention goes about OHC heads with flat tappet type followers.....Ive machined and rebuilt every type of cylinder head imaginable over the 4 years I was just doing cylinder heads at JMS. More variation than you can imagine, like model, make, engine displacement, valvetrain style, era it was designed/built in, on and on. Thousands of overhead cam cylinder heads of all types. Ive never seen a flat tappet style follower that is comparable to a pushrod motor, in the sense that a cam in a pushrod motor has to push (more like smack) a heavy lifter, a pushrod and rotate a rocker arm, and has to do it with relative violence compared to any OHC motor. The lobe is seeing far more abuse. With the flat pad style follower on an OHC head, that follower is extremely light and the lobe doesnt really have to overcome any significant inertia or load like a lobe does in a pushrod motor. Its a light little thing with a flat pad and a ball pocket to house the lash adjuster. There is so little load and inertia to overcome, it cant be compared at all.
 
Another thing to think about with this additiive--How do we know if it will harm the chemical composition and thus not allow the particular oil that we mix it with to do its job right? Maybe mixing this additive will harm some particular oils and not others? Im not saying this ZZDPlus stuff is bad, but I dont want it to turn out like Slick50 which causes more harm than good...:confused:
 
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