12 Degrees Knock Retard @ 13# Boost...WTF?

[zhorner]

worked on this thing non stop today till 10 tonight. KO'd a bunch of little things and I removed the extra hot wire kit and cleaned the FPR. I rubbed some DOT 3 brake fluid into the diaphragm and let it sit to soften it up a little more while I did the other stuff. There was a black rubber 0-ring virtually missing from the fuel line that connects to the bottom of the FPR so I replaced that with the proper red one, also replaced a few vacuum lines and zip tied the ones running to the FPR. My fuel pressure reading has really levelled out. Before it would fluctuate at idle by a few PSI and now it is only a few tenths. as you can see below I am still getting some KR around 10# boost but my FP increase is steady 1:1 with boost. I do not have smoothing turned on and you can still see the random spikes...they are popping up while cruising as well which makes me think it is a ground issue as mentioned by jerryl.



Below is my first go with the alcohol turned on at the lowest setting. bye bye knock retard . still more to do though...I added 4 new things to my buick fix list, seems I open up a can of worms every time I work on this thing. Also thinking about changing her name from Shameka to The Black Lemon.

 

[zhorner]

That butt connecter might be part of the issue. The wires going into the sending unit bulkhead look a little scorched too. I know the Racetronix sending unit uses heavier gauge wires to the pump as well as free flowing hard pipes.

I soldered and put 3 layers of heat shrink on that wire, which was for the fuel level gauge. The racetronix unit would definitely be of interest to me...doesn't really make since to run a 10g wire just to plug it into factory 14 or 16g. Ill do some research on it and go from there,

thanks man

 

[jnaarnold]

Are you running some sort of manual boost controller? I am new to this, but curious how you are picking up fuel pressure in your PL? I think possibly you could be losing vacuum/boost somewhere to the FPR. That's why I asked about the manual boost controller. I have seen some installed backwards and seating/unseating the check ball at the wrong time. The only other idea my feeble mind can think of, cause everyone else has already come up with some great direction, would be the computer(ECM), specifically the 'quad-drivers'?? Well, just some thoughts, hope you can figure this out.
John

 

[Pronto]

He is using a trasducer probably at the fuel rail to send a 5v signal to one of the spare ports on the PL.

 

[zhorner]

Are you running some sort of manual boost controller? I am new to this, but curious how you are picking up fuel pressure in your PL? I think possibly you could be losing vacuum/boost somewhere to the FPR. That's why I asked about the manual boost controller. I have seen some installed backwards and seating/unseating the check ball at the wrong time. The only other idea my feeble mind can think of, cause everyone else has already come up with some great direction, would be the computer(ECM), specifically the 'quad-drivers'?? Well, just some thoughts, hope you can figure this out.
John

Yes as pronto said I have a pressure transducer on my fuel rail.

yes I am using a manual boost controller but it was installed years ago and never gave me any trouble before. The ECM is an interesting idea since I just replaced it to fix an issue of the car dying whilst cruising down the highway. I tried to find a log with the old ECM but none have any boost. I stated above that it is doing it when cruising too but the vast majority of spikes happen under boost.

heres my thoughts on the issue everyone, please forgive my simpleness and lack of understanding:
The issue..........I am seeing spikes in FP particularly when under boost from ~45 to and instant ~65 then back down. Now, while under boost, pressure is being forced into not only the motor but the FPR as well via the vacuum lines correct? The pressure increase closes off the fuel return back to the tank at a 1:1 psi rate (supposed to anyway).

SO! if I had an issue with loosing vacuum to the FPR, I would lose boost pressure as well. Since an increase in boost is what causes an increase in FP I should either be seeing boost spikes (which im not) or if I have a vacuum leak somewhere I should be seeing FP drops since less positive pressure would be reaching the FPR?

If what I said above is correct, It makes me think the issue is electrical. That's IF the above is correct, I would love to here some opinions on it.

 

[jnaarnold]

Yes as pronto said I have a pressure transducer on my fuel rail.

yes I am using a manual boost controller but it was installed years ago and never gave me any trouble before. The ECM is an interesting idea since I just replaced it to fix an issue of the car dying whilst cruising down the highway. I tried to find a log with the old ECM but none have any boost. I stated above that it is doing it when cruising too but the vast majority of spikes happen under boost.

heres my thoughts on the issue everyone, please forgive my simpleness and lack of understanding:
The issue..........I am seeing spikes in FP particularly when under boost from ~45 to and instant ~65 then back down. Now, while under boost, pressure is being forced into not only the motor but the FPR as well via the vacuum lines correct? The pressure increase closes off the fuel return back to the tank at a 1:1 psi rate (supposed to anyway).

SO! if I had an issue with loosing vacuum to the FPR, I would lose boost pressure as well. Since an increase in boost is what causes an increase in FP I should either be seeing boost spikes (which im not) or if I have a vacuum leak somewhere I should be seeing FP drops since less positive pressure would be reaching the FPR?

If what I said above is correct, It makes me think the issue is electrical. That's IF the above is correct, I would love to here some opinions on it.

Makes sense... At idle try tapping on the the case of the ECM. This was an old trick we would do to duplicate problems with the sensitive quad drivers. If there is an issue, you should see it on the PL. Also, does the pressure transducer feed the ECM for any reason other than as a reading for loggin? I will send more when I get home, this is from my phone..
John

 

[zhorner]

Makes sense... At idle try tapping on the the case of the ECM. This was an old trick we would do to duplicate problems with the sensitive quad drivers. If there is an issue, you should see it on the PL. Also, does the pressure transducer feed the ECM for any reason other than as a reading for loggin? I will send more when I get home, this is from my phone..
John

ok ill try it.

the transducer does not feed or have any effect on the ECM at all and the only reason is for logging.

as a side note, I inspected all the transducer wires and re did the ground for peace of mind and still having the issue

 

[Jerryl]

ok ill try it.

the transducer does not feed or have any effect on the ECM at all and the only reason is for logging.

as a side note, I inspected all the transducer wires and re did the ground for peace of mind and still having the issue

Could be electrical noise . . .
Zoom into the area where fp spikes . (been a while and I think there is a zoom function). . . . Look what the inj pulse and afr are doing. The spike may be to short to have an affect or it may be false . . . but if right after the spike the afr and/or pw changes, its real.
If you have not yet . . . Closely inspect the inj harness for any corrosion or breaks just to be sure.

You made some nice progress with the car.

 

[Pronto]

The transducer is only connected to the PL. Has zero affect on the ECM. If you can tap into the power feed right at the bulkhead, you could see how steady the voltage going to the pump is.

 

[jnaarnold]

ok ill try it.

the transducer does not feed or have any effect on the ECM at all and the only reason is for logging.

as a side note, I inspected all the transducer wires and re did the ground for peace of mind and still having the issue

Which after thinking about it...and to follow my rules of thumb (for troubleshooting), keep it simple and what was the last thing that occurred before the problem started happening?
So,
1. What happened right before this problem started? This might help us narrow it down. What changed or what did you change on the car? I am only trying to avoid us going off on a rabbit trail.
2. Look at the facts-
-Knock retard without spraying alcohol, at a low amount of boost
-FP goes up then falls off

In my world (industrial maintenance management), I teach problem solving based troubleshooting, which has gotten me to the root cause better than any other method. Basically, the five "why?'s". In other words, why is the knock retard so high at a certain amount of boost? answer:_________________________". This was answered before I am sure but it might help to actually have you post all this to help up all see your thought and method processes. (or more selfishly, for me to see it ). So then, you would answer that 'answer' with another, Why...and so on until you get to the root of the problem.
Again, I am only trying to help here, not complicate things. Which might be happening every time I or someone else throws out another idea or suggestion...
John

 

[zhorner]

Could be electrical noise . . .
Zoom into the area where fp spikes . (been a while and I think there is a zoom function). . . . Look what the inj pulse and afr are doing. The spike may be to short to have an affect or it may be false . . . but if right after the spike the afr and/or pw changes, its real.
If you have not yet . . . Closely inspect the inj harness for any corrosion or breaks just to be sure.

You made some nice progress with the car.

if their is a zoom, I have no clue how to use it. Going from frame to frame though I see no real change in pw or afr. Ill check the harness when it stops raining.

 

[zhorner]

Which after thinking about it...and to follow my rules of thumb (for troubleshooting), keep it simple and what was the last thing that occurred before the problem started happening?
So,
1. What happened right before this problem started? This might help us narrow it down. What changed or what did you change on the car? I am only trying to avoid us going off on a rabbit trail.
2. Look at the facts-
-Knock retard without spraying alcohol, at a low amount of boost
-FP goes up then falls off

In my world (industrial maintenance management), I teach problem solving based troubleshooting, which has gotten me to the root cause better than any other method. Basically, the five "why?'s". In other words, why is the knock retard so high at a certain amount of boost? answer:_________________________". This was answered before I am sure but it might help to actually have you post all this to help up all see your thought and method processes. (or more selfishly, for me to see it ). So then, you would answer that 'answer' with another, Why...and so on until you get to the root of the problem.
Again, I am only trying to help here, not complicate things. Which might be happening every time I or someone else throws out another idea or suggestion...
John

im thinking the issue with KR was solved by a few early on in this thread...too much timing for 91 octane fuel. My chip is designed to be used with alky, I just had it in my head that I should be able to run more than 8# without it. Prior to the rebuild I could run more boost without KR with 55# injectors. But upon further thought...I upgraded to a much bigger intercooler W/ piping, and replaced the old worn out small k&n filter with the biggest one I could find, as well as changed from an older extender chip to the TT 6.1...which has more timing.

I am convinced I just didn't have the octane for the amount of air and timing.

now I just gotta figure out these FP spikes and go from there.

 

[zhorner]

Inj harness looks good. I just had a buddy brake it to 1# boost while I wiggled the inj wires and harness, tapped the ECM, and wiggled all the wires at the pump hoping to find a bad ground or something but couldn't get it to do anything abnormal from what it has been. didn't have time to monitor voltage to the pump but that is next on the list.

 

[zhorner]

to give a little update to the thread. I drove the car yesterday and FP is worse than ever. Makes me think that by cleaning the FPR and putting brake fluid on the diaphragm to soften it, I just put a Band-Aid on the situation. It was stable immediately after doing this but now is straight garbage.

SO...whether the FPR is the problem or not, (have a strong feeling it is), I am replacing it with a TTA Bosch 237. Ive been doing non stop research and have concluded that the 237 unit is the best fit for my car.
------No need for an adjustable FPR at my power level, i can adjust fuel with my TT chip when needed.
------Seems nearly 100% of the threads with erratic FP have an accufab unit on their car.
------At only $50 shipped for a new unit on ebay, its worth a shot.

Also just bought one of casper's audible knock detector's from a forum member. It would have saved me from some detonation already so i feel the need for one.

 

[zhorner]

Did you see if fuel filter is clogged , I would definitely go 1 step colder on plugs . Too hot imo

Your comments on sparks plugs...sparked...me to do some research . But seriously man I appreciate your suggestion and after a few hours of looking around i decided to go from my UR5's to a recessed tip YR5. According to Bison and Razor, sparks plugs are overrated at my power lever but after reading multiple posts from Nick Micale, I decided the recessed tip is the way to go for me. The YR5 plugs are colder than factory and I am confident they will work out.

anywho...just wanted to let you know that i listened to your advice and did some research based off of it. thanks man.

 

[REAPER231]

Hey that's great just giving you my experience what I ve done over last 10 yrs with my car I go back n forth from ur5 to ur6 depending how I'm going to drive the car with pump to c16 gas . And boost level I'm running . My car setup for low 10's and do real world driving n then do a hit on the back roads from time to time racing once in a while . still going strong . I know bison well brought to guys I know to him to set there gns up . Great guy . Know nick too met him at kirbans , both guys help me with questions I have all the time . Always learning .

 

[Pronto]

When I did my fpr experiments, the Bosch unit was the most stable. I ran UR5s for years. The recessed tip is a good feature but I never tried them. I am trying a recessed plug now that's a step colder than the 5.

 

[zhorner]

When I did my fpr experiments, the Bosch unit was the most stable. I ran UR5s for years. The recessed tip is a good feature but I never tried them. I am trying a recessed plug now that's a step colder than the 5.

yea man it was the thread "paging all powerlogger experts" where I saw you post up your results and I saw a few times where Eric at TT said they are good to go with his chips so I say f*ck it ill give it a try.

 

[zhorner]

WOO HOO!!!!

No KR @ 14#. Im pretty psyched something finally worked out. I replaced the accufab with a Bosch 237 FPR and that fixed my erratic FP issues. I also had to play with the alky some and changed the "turn on" so it comes on sooner and had to max out the gain knob @ 8 o'clock to get zero knock. I have a feeling its time to check out my alky pump since it was installed 10 years ago and never touched after that.

 

[zhorner]

its been raining a lot here and had some down time to re install my B&m Pro Stick that came in my car. I scored a nice console and cover plate for $80 and went to work making it look clean. As far as I know, its the only one installed that still uses the factory overlay.