2004 GTO Backlash
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Do all the people bashing seen the GTO in person? Its totally different up close and personal. All the pictures before I saw it didn't show the size of the car at all. Its a lot different when its right in front of you.
I've been for it from the get go, I guess on the minority side. But a lot of people changed there minds when they could see it in person.
Its not a bad looking car. Think of it as a 64 GTO. Not much too look at when compared to other cars. It wasn't until one year later did it start taking on its own identity. Just like the new one will.
I've been for it from the get go, I guess on the minority side. But a lot of people changed there minds when they could see it in person.
Its not a bad looking car. Think of it as a 64 GTO. Not much too look at when compared to other cars. It wasn't until one year later did it start taking on its own identity. Just like the new one will.
Little6pack
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OMG we are going down this path again..
At least the monero is not going to be called a GN or GNX
AGREED the chassis & engine will probably ROCK (for 30k it should)
TRUTH the BODY is a rice boy love affair. The car should have been held till 05 & came out against the 05 stang with a better styled body with vintage accents from a few different year gtos.
Just another one of GM's many botches..
At least the monero is not going to be called a GN or GNX
AGREED the chassis & engine will probably ROCK (for 30k it should)
TRUTH the BODY is a rice boy love affair. The car should have been held till 05 & came out against the 05 stang with a better styled body with vintage accents from a few different year gtos.
Just another one of GM's many botches..
jon_we4
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yep.
and we all drive gn's because of the amount of style an all black 80's g-body has
and we all drive gn's because of the amount of style an all black 80's g-body has
It's to bad the GTO came back as a controversial car rather than one that generated excitement. I too hoped it would return as an evolutionary car rather than retro (beginning to hate that word) style, I like the 64-72 GTO's style, had a 70 Judge and still have a 69, but a modern interpretation of what the GTO could have looked like had it evolved. The new GTO may run and handle good but that may not be enough to make it desirable for traditionalists, older people, younger people, and certainly not a BMW buyer.
As for styling, sure that may be subjective but that car really is no different in shape or appearance than a Ford Taurus or the other bazzilion jelly beans that look like that. I am sure that good looks are important to most from a mate to houses,clothes furniture, cars, etc. , really, don't anyone lie and say looks don't matter, of course it does. So many great designs from both the past and present, and this is the best GM can do? Where are all the innovative new generation designers, engineers, marketing people? There not at GM!
While IMO thought the orange GTO concept car a few years back (2001) was a bit bizzare, it was at least more of an effort in the looks dept. If the GTO makes it past it's first year back before getting it's but kicked by the upcoming Mustang, not to mention other three letter cars (with four cylinders ) I hope GM doesn't tack it up with scoops and such, though it's hard to make even suggestions what to do with the style , kind of limited with the jelly bean body
As for styling, sure that may be subjective but that car really is no different in shape or appearance than a Ford Taurus or the other bazzilion jelly beans that look like that. I am sure that good looks are important to most from a mate to houses,clothes furniture, cars, etc. , really, don't anyone lie and say looks don't matter, of course it does. So many great designs from both the past and present, and this is the best GM can do? Where are all the innovative new generation designers, engineers, marketing people? There not at GM!
While IMO thought the orange GTO concept car a few years back (2001) was a bit bizzare, it was at least more of an effort in the looks dept. If the GTO makes it past it's first year back before getting it's but kicked by the upcoming Mustang, not to mention other three letter cars (with four cylinders
) I hope GM doesn't tack it up with scoops and such, though it's hard to make even suggestions what to do with the style , kind of limited with the jelly bean bodyRe: FROM THE TRUTH IS STRANGER THAN FICTION DEPARTMENT
Yes but look at the Aztek he made with Lutz as his new boss.
Big difference from the previous administration.
Originally posted by Two Lane
The Lutz-meister recently promoted the "Chief of the Aztec Project", Mark Reuss, to head of the entire GM Performance Division...
Yes but look at the Aztek he made with Lutz as his new boss.
Big difference from the previous administration.
You know what I find interesting is that nobody mentioned Price. I mean, I like the new styling. Its not a through back, but you guys dont understand the whole story. There are federal standards and money that come into this. They are using an existing car line and an existing drive line do make this car for one reason, and one reason Only... Cash!
To develop an completely new car would mean lots of time and money invested to prove the meet federl crash standards, fleet fuel economy standards, and EPA standards.
For them, no matter what company brings back a name that is used to use, there is goig to be controversy. What if next year buick made an all balck GS with a 3800SC and called it a GN. WE would all be beside ourselves over that. Though, it would be a GN the EVOLVED. Evolution is the Key... this is what a GTO is today. Think about the thunderbird fans, talk about a car with an Identity problem... hell that car has been a 2 seater convertible, a 2 door mid size car, a Freakin 2 door land yacht, and Aero Designed hooptie, and a Mid Size performance car... and now its back to looking like it did in the 50's. So, cars evolve. I mean did the Firebirds look the way they did in the 60's.. hell no, but they kept the main focus, as didn the Vette, Mustang, Camaro, and now the GTO. The Firebird wasa great bang fo rthe buck muscle car that handeled well and went fast(as compared to other cars at the time of manufacturing), but kept the Pushrod V8 (or other engines...yuk!) long hood, rear drive, and defined lines of the originals. So who sayes the GTO should not look like this? I didn't hear anyone complaining that the TTA had a V6... and its the only Trans Am ever built with a V6. Hmmmm... whats the big deal about hood scoops anyway.
To me, the GTO was a rear drive, mid size muscle car with great bang for the buck that you could comfortably drive and was affordable. I think the new one will meet all of that except one. Which brings me back to price. If they are expecting to compete against the mustang and other performance oriented cars... they are in the wrong price calss. At a base price of $35,000 they are not making it affordable, not offer performance greater than that of a cheaper mustang, and making it out of reach of the market segment that will be mostly excited about it. Whic is us younger guys that like rear drive V8 performance cars. I dont want to make a fast Turbo charged FWD 4cyl. I respect those that are fast and not riced... hell I like the WRX's, but I would never want to Hot Rod one. I would rather buy a V8 Mustang fully equiped and just aroun $27,000 and invest the $8,000+ that I am saving in performance and styling modifications and have 3 times the car that the GTO is. I think they are tageting a Retro market of mid 40's-mid 50's men that want their dream GTO that they remember, and its not that. I say Keep the performnace... figure out a way to brin the price down and market as the "NEW" GTO and not "A" GTO which they are now.
Off the soap box now.
To develop an completely new car would mean lots of time and money invested to prove the meet federl crash standards, fleet fuel economy standards, and EPA standards.
For them, no matter what company brings back a name that is used to use, there is goig to be controversy. What if next year buick made an all balck GS with a 3800SC and called it a GN. WE would all be beside ourselves over that. Though, it would be a GN the EVOLVED. Evolution is the Key... this is what a GTO is today. Think about the thunderbird fans, talk about a car with an Identity problem... hell that car has been a 2 seater convertible, a 2 door mid size car, a Freakin 2 door land yacht, and Aero Designed hooptie, and a Mid Size performance car... and now its back to looking like it did in the 50's. So, cars evolve. I mean did the Firebirds look the way they did in the 60's.. hell no, but they kept the main focus, as didn the Vette, Mustang, Camaro, and now the GTO. The Firebird wasa great bang fo rthe buck muscle car that handeled well and went fast(as compared to other cars at the time of manufacturing), but kept the Pushrod V8 (or other engines...yuk!) long hood, rear drive, and defined lines of the originals. So who sayes the GTO should not look like this? I didn't hear anyone complaining that the TTA had a V6... and its the only Trans Am ever built with a V6. Hmmmm... whats the big deal about hood scoops anyway.
To me, the GTO was a rear drive, mid size muscle car with great bang for the buck that you could comfortably drive and was affordable. I think the new one will meet all of that except one. Which brings me back to price. If they are expecting to compete against the mustang and other performance oriented cars... they are in the wrong price calss. At a base price of $35,000 they are not making it affordable, not offer performance greater than that of a cheaper mustang, and making it out of reach of the market segment that will be mostly excited about it. Whic is us younger guys that like rear drive V8 performance cars. I dont want to make a fast Turbo charged FWD 4cyl. I respect those that are fast and not riced... hell I like the WRX's, but I would never want to Hot Rod one. I would rather buy a V8 Mustang fully equiped and just aroun $27,000 and invest the $8,000+ that I am saving in performance and styling modifications and have 3 times the car that the GTO is. I think they are tageting a Retro market of mid 40's-mid 50's men that want their dream GTO that they remember, and its not that. I say Keep the performnace... figure out a way to brin the price down and market as the "NEW" GTO and not "A" GTO which they are now.
Off the soap box now.
87boosted6
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GOATS
im a younger guy, so i didnt grow up in the muscle car era, but i LOVE the GTO because theyre (GM) keepin it real. they got a (pretty good lookin) car with a pretty big motor, available 6speed tranny and rear wheel drive. i think its a pretty good idea, but i must say that youre right when it comes to the price, but then again, i honestly dont think the new stang will sell very well at all but thats just me. if i had the money and i had already graduated from career school (which would give me the money) then i think i might buy one, maybe. i just dont see anything wrong with the car. as for GNs being light years ahead than the GTO, i dont know about that. yes GNs are great, BUT lightyears ahead? i dont think so. i guess time will tell the truth tho. Also, the last i heard, Jon Moss is retired for a while, meaning he'll probably come back.
check out pontiac.com/gto and you can see it again, and even hear it 
im a younger guy, so i didnt grow up in the muscle car era, but i LOVE the GTO because theyre (GM) keepin it real. they got a (pretty good lookin) car with a pretty big motor, available 6speed tranny and rear wheel drive. i think its a pretty good idea, but i must say that youre right when it comes to the price, but then again, i honestly dont think the new stang will sell very well at all but thats just me. if i had the money and i had already graduated from career school (which would give me the money) then i think i might buy one, maybe. i just dont see anything wrong with the car. as for GNs being light years ahead than the GTO, i dont know about that. yes GNs are great, BUT lightyears ahead? i dont think so. i guess time will tell the truth tho. Also, the last i heard, Jon Moss is retired for a while, meaning he'll probably come back.
check out pontiac.com/gto and you can see it again, and even hear it
The people who complain the most it seems are the GTO purists. They want a big block and nasty (in a good way) styling. That's a small segment of the buying public. GM is trying to appeal to a broader audience and like it or not, the styling of the GTO is consistent with a lot of others cars out there that are selling well.
I heard someone call the GTO "underperforming" which I think is ridiculous. They certainly have room to turn it up, but you can't call this car a weak sister or a rebadged Grand Prix. Maybe it could use a few nasty touches like a functional hood scoop etc. But I like the looks and am glad that Pontiac finally got away from all the Cheezy plastic side cladding of just a few years ago. Maybe they could make a limited edition version with a prostock hood scoop, a superbird wing on the back, side scoops, 14 inch Cragar SS rims, optional 10in discs in front, drums in the rear, bench seat and lap belts. Of course we'd want a 455. That way we can go 13's like the new GTO should be, but get only 12 MPG.
Aww. Bob Lutz wouldn't have the stones to give the public what we really want.
I heard someone call the GTO "underperforming" which I think is ridiculous. They certainly have room to turn it up, but you can't call this car a weak sister or a rebadged Grand Prix. Maybe it could use a few nasty touches like a functional hood scoop etc. But I like the looks and am glad that Pontiac finally got away from all the Cheezy plastic side cladding of just a few years ago. Maybe they could make a limited edition version with a prostock hood scoop, a superbird wing on the back, side scoops, 14 inch Cragar SS rims, optional 10in discs in front, drums in the rear, bench seat and lap belts. Of course we'd want a 455. That way we can go 13's like the new GTO should be, but get only 12 MPG.
Aww. Bob Lutz wouldn't have the stones to give the public what we really want.this pisses me off big time. the people knocking the GTO who think they are GTO purests are exactly the oposite. i would have thought they would like it , and here is why:
back in 1964, GM had a PLANE looking midsize called the lamanz or tempest or what ever it was. they put a hot motor in it, some badges, suspension and BAM: the GTO was born.
fast foreward to 2004: GM took a plane jane looking midsize sedan and added a hot motor, sporty interior and suspension, hmmmmmmmm
the only reason the old GTO's style is loved is because it is a clasic.
all clasic cars look good now a days. the GTO was nothing to brag about on the outside back in 64, besides the rallye wheels and duel exhaust.
its whats on the INSIDE that counts. thats what made the GTO what it was.
SOUNDS LIKE A GTO should be!
those old farts dont DESERVE a new GTO if ya ask me
back in 1964, GM had a PLANE looking midsize called the lamanz or tempest or what ever it was. they put a hot motor in it, some badges, suspension and BAM: the GTO was born.
fast foreward to 2004: GM took a plane jane looking midsize sedan and added a hot motor, sporty interior and suspension, hmmmmmmmm
the only reason the old GTO's style is loved is because it is a clasic.
all clasic cars look good now a days. the GTO was nothing to brag about on the outside back in 64, besides the rallye wheels and duel exhaust.
its whats on the INSIDE that counts. thats what made the GTO what it was.
SOUNDS LIKE A GTO should be!
those old farts dont DESERVE a new GTO if ya ask me
MeanBuicks
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Well, since nobody has mentioned it thus far...
SLP has been working on addressing the styling shortcomings. Here is an excpert from an AutoWeek article.
SLP has been working on addressing the styling shortcomings. Here is an excpert from an AutoWeek article.
That's the one beauty about this GTO. It's a blank canvas for the aftermarket to jump on. I'll look out for some GTOs at the SEMA show this year. Wouldn't be surprised to see a few.
I totally agree, at least it doesn't look like the bat-mobile like the last Trans Am's did. No crappy body cladding or anything tacky.
Most of us have at least changed the wheels on our beloved turbo regals...
"That's the one beauty about this GTO. It's a blank canvas for the aftermarket to jump on. I'll look out for some GTOs at the SEMA show this year. Wouldn't be surprised to see a few."
Mark F. 87 GN 11.9 @ 115
Most of us have at least changed the wheels on our beloved turbo regals...
"That's the one beauty about this GTO. It's a blank canvas for the aftermarket to jump on. I'll look out for some GTOs at the SEMA show this year. Wouldn't be surprised to see a few."
Mark F. 87 GN 11.9 @ 115
Originally posted by jon_we4
yep.
and we all drive gn's because of the amount of style an all black 80's g-body has
Hey, back in the '80's when our car's were new I remember how they were THE bad boy looking car. Everybody DROOLED over the look and the styling! I still love the 81-87(8) G body styling. GN's and Monte Carlo SS's were the first all black evil looking cars. It was soooo cool back then because chrome trim was still on everything else being produced. That's why you used to see so many references to Darth Vader with the GN. Since then the look has been done so many times it's common place and doesn't stand out anymore. But back then, oh man!!
jon_we4
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I wouldnt have my WE4 any other way ... I was trying to make a point to the haters about style and design
Being all black isnt what I was commenting on, but the over all box style
Being all black isnt what I was commenting on, but the over all box style
My problem with the new GTO is not the car itself but rather what has become of the great GM. Forget the name Pontiac and GTO for a minute and look at the car only. It is a true musclecar and is a respectable package with a great engine, neat interior, and average ( but nothing to get excited about) looking exterior ( great as a sleeper car). Judging strictly as a performance machine if looks aren't important, the only problems really are it's a bit heavy in weight and price.
GM has the right to do whatever it wants with it's brand and model names, so Pontiac can market the car as a GTO. Is it a Pontiac--no, is it a GTO--well if that's what the emblems say, is there any Pontiac GTO heritage-- absolutly not, why? because it is made by anouther manufacturer and is called something else. My point, GM continues to do this with other models, mixes drivetrains (corporate), sells foreign makes/models under GM brands, and is full guilty of completely confusing its customers. What other auto manufacturer has such a confusing, mixed product lineup? A Ford is a Ford, Honda is a Honda, etc. but the GM family is really mixed up and out of control.
Back in the day of the original GTO, GM divisions while sharing basic designs, built there own engines and cars, each division really a unique brand under the GM banner. They changed the looks and updated the technology ( for the time period) every year, and didn't tease us with preview for years of an upcoming model (SSR,GTO), they had them in showrooms now. GM was an awesome empire.
Unlike the Corvette, Camaro, Mustang, T-bird, etc., the 04 GTO is not a product of evolution, the original was gone 30 years ago with nothing in between, the 04 was picked up off the corporate shelf, given the name, and sold as a brand it isn't.
I am a Pontiac enthusiast not a purist, have modified, raced, and restored the GTOs and like them for what they are, sure they have shortcomings but they were built in the US by Pontiac and are Pontiacs. The 04 is not a Pontiac and saying it has heritage to the 60s GTO is as close as saying the same of a new Toyota or Mazda does.
These are the new days and pontiac will sell this car as a GTO, but it has nothing to do with or have a relation/heritage whatsoever to the GTOs of the past. In todays GM product chaos marketing, the Holden Monaro would have been better marketed as a Chevelle SS, at least with the LS-1 it would be closer in heritage.
GM has the right to do whatever it wants with it's brand and model names, so Pontiac can market the car as a GTO. Is it a Pontiac--no, is it a GTO--well if that's what the emblems say, is there any Pontiac GTO heritage-- absolutly not, why? because it is made by anouther manufacturer and is called something else. My point, GM continues to do this with other models, mixes drivetrains (corporate), sells foreign makes/models under GM brands, and is full guilty of completely confusing its customers. What other auto manufacturer has such a confusing, mixed product lineup? A Ford is a Ford, Honda is a Honda, etc. but the GM family is really mixed up and out of control.
Back in the day of the original GTO, GM divisions while sharing basic designs, built there own engines and cars, each division really a unique brand under the GM banner. They changed the looks and updated the technology ( for the time period) every year, and didn't tease us with preview for years of an upcoming model (SSR,GTO), they had them in showrooms now. GM was an awesome empire.
Unlike the Corvette, Camaro, Mustang, T-bird, etc., the 04 GTO is not a product of evolution, the original was gone 30 years ago with nothing in between, the 04 was picked up off the corporate shelf, given the name, and sold as a brand it isn't.
I am a Pontiac enthusiast not a purist, have modified, raced, and restored the GTOs and like them for what they are, sure they have shortcomings but they were built in the US by Pontiac and are Pontiacs. The 04 is not a Pontiac and saying it has heritage to the 60s GTO is as close as saying the same of a new Toyota or Mazda does.
These are the new days and pontiac will sell this car as a GTO, but it has nothing to do with or have a relation/heritage whatsoever to the GTOs of the past. In todays GM product chaos marketing, the Holden Monaro would have been better marketed as a Chevelle SS, at least with the LS-1 it would be closer in heritage.
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TRiv
You nailed it and made some good points.
Great post!
You nailed it and made some good points.
Great post!
