200R4 Trans With Stage motor

[Two Lane]

Clarification for Artie

The aluminum driveshafts carried in stock in several Buick-specific catalogs typically selling from $320-399 were the ones referenced as being strength-rated for around 350 hp. Inappropriate for Travis's planned combo, O.K. for the mildly modded, street TR.

Also, doing a search on "driveshaft" threads provides track-stories about what happens to the lower-hp DSs under the shock of transbrakes & boost...can you say: "Taffy?"

The ptds.com link I provided to Travis offers aluminum, chrome-moly, and carbon-fiber DSs built for (much) higher horsepower, & pure race applications.

Like I just posted in another DS thread, not all DSs are created equal, even of the same material.
__________________________________________________

I always try to look-out for my bud NJTurbo...it's a full-time job...
but somebody has to do it.

Happy Christmas Eve to everyone at Rich's Auto!!

 

[Kip]

I think $1000 to freshen a tranny is high. Once the initial expenpse of building it is over the hard parts should remain.Freshen to me is band, seals, and clutches. Your high dollar stuff such as servo, billet drum, billet input should be reruseable.
See ya, Kip

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Originally posted by njturbo
Art i hear you i just cannot see myself with no OD and that race shifter. I really want to have a sleeper, GNX dash and my stock consol. I know Rich mentioned he knows someone that runs a 400 with stock shifter that is a trick set-up. I guess i will grab a 200R4 build it and keep as a spare. That way if i blow it up i can just swap it out. It would be nice if Bruce WE4 chimmed in

Overdrive is overrated!
I guess if you want to go cruising around at 70 MPH for an hour that's OK I guess. I look at it this way, race fuel is expensive so I do as little street driving as possible. Too the track and either back home or to one of the stables at Rich's Custom Auto. Having overdrive will save you a little gas depending on the distance you are driving. I think this is good cause in my opinion the money you'll save on fuel you'll probably be spending on transmission rebuilds over the years..... Have you taken into consideration the amount of money you are going to be spending on fuel tooling around? My car is pretty efficient for a 9 second car I think. I get probably about 10-15 MPG. I live 25 miles from the track. A full tank of race fuel at the track will get me (I fill up when I get there about every 3 days of racing):

race all day (3-4 runs)
back home from the track (25 mi)
back to the track from home (25 mi)
race all day (3-4 runs)
back home from the track (25 mi)
back to the track from home (25 mi)
race all day (3-4 runs)
back home from the track (25 mi)
back to the track from home (25 mi)

At this point when I arrive at the track I'm a little under a quarter of a tank so I fill up which is about 12 gallons of fuel.

I have small 96# injectors. If you are going to go with 160's expect to go through a LOT more fuel. I think Neal Whyte has an idea of what amount of fuel he goes through with his 160’s.

Again, just think about how much highway driving you are going to be doing at $5-$6 a gallon..... If you are going to run pump gas and change the programming then God help you!! You're a better man than me! Car costs enough to maintain without trying to run it on cheap gas.

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Sorry Travis, didn't finish my post.

I was going to also add that regardless of the type of transmission, shifter or dash you have, the roll cage is a dead give away that it’s not your average street car. If you are not going to use one then I won't get into a discussion about safety but expect to twist up your car pretty good if you are using a trans brake. I've got a nice little buckle in the front of the roof from moderate trans brake launches. I think Eric Rankin's old car had a permanent bend in it from his launches. Tony Gomes buckled his quarter panel from hard launches. All these people have full NHRA inspected cages (including me). If my little high 9 second, 1.44 60' car can buckle the roof a little with a welded in chrome molly cage, imagine what another high 9 second car without a welded in cage would do...... 1.44’s aren’t all that much considering I’m launching at 10-12 psi off a trans brake. I know people that can pull that off the foot brake.

I say this cause I'd hate to have you spend all this money to build a 9 second stage car only to either run short of money because of yearly transmission rebuild costs or twist up a beautiful car. Even if you are rebuilding the transmissions yourself there is a cost involved and then the time it takes you to rebuild the transmission, you could be out racing with us at E-Town every weekend!!

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Originally posted by Kip
I think $1000 to freshen a tranny is high. Once the initial expenpse of building it is over the hard parts should remain.Freshen to me is band, seals, and clutches. Your high dollar stuff such as servo, billet drum, billet input should be reruseable.
See ya, Kip

You are correct Kip. In speaking to Eric Shirtz (SP?) he tells me that there is always something torn up in his 200R when he rebuilds it ever season. Even if you are freshening it every season it still gets expensive! I know people that have gotten 3-5 years with anywhere from 300-500 runs on their 400's. Even if the re-freshen is costing you only say $500 (if someone is doing it for you), doing that every year is money you could be spending somewhere else. We all know these cars are money pits (especially a stage car) and there is always some other part "you have to have". Suspension, that new turbo, that new intercooler, new injectors, mid-plate, that bigger cam, new poly mounts, fiberglass bumpers, fiberglass hood, fiberglass deck lid...... Oh wait, that's my list of things of "I just have to have....."

 

[NastyGn]

Originally posted by TurboDiverArt
I was going to also add that regardless of the type of transmission, shifter or dash you have, the roll cage is a dead give away that it’s not your average street car.

What???? You mean to tell me that Stage cars don't come with roll cages?

LOL I do agree with Art people will know something is up when they see all that chromoly around you with a little blue sticker on it showing NHRA inspection date heheheh.

Happy Holidays

 

[Two Lane]

What is a "mid-plate"?

And, what ever it is, is it available in carbon fiber...

LOL!

 

[NJTurbo]

Two Lane as always you are a dear servant and welcome to the palace anytime you want.

Art i will accept the offer of racing with you guys that should be fun maybe Rich can teach me how to cut them awesome lights
As far as the rollbar, the trans, ETC.
I will be running 83LBS injectors with a Fast System, i will not be stupid and put cheap gas in a 15-18k engine. I guess i am trying to get over that whole thing of, my car is mint and i really have a problem hacking it all up, that is why i am choosing a GNX dash. If i have to R+R the Trans myself and rebuild once a year i am okay with that. As far as twisting the car to be honest with you i did not even think of that learn something new everyday i log on. What kinda RPM'S are you turning lets say at 65-70MPH? I would hate to scream car with a 400, and why is there some many positives about the 200R4 built correct with monster parts if that is not true? if this is the case i could go with a 4L80E however this is a much heavier unit. I would like to run low 10's with a conservative tune. I am not buiding my car to max it out everytime i am at track and run 9's all day. Hey if i break into a 9 great if not oh well, the build is more for a reliable 10 without killing the car or the engine.

 

[NastyGn]

njturbo, something to consider. What I think you will find in building a Stage II is that horsepower is going to find the weak link in any system. The car was not designed to carry a motor with 500+ hp so things will have to change or other things will break.

Good Luck on your project.

 

[NJTurbo]

Neil,

As always thank you for your good advice.

Happy Holidays

 

[Larry]

Had stock block running 10.40's-with 2004r. Built by Vince Janice, OHIO. Used Bruce Tolleys Billet parts with Precision 7 disc vigilanti- stage right brake- 6 point roll cage. Running 625-650hp, launched at 12#'s. All was good. Now going to Stage motor- 750-800 hp. Can someone tell me Yes or No on the 200. I could rebuild it each year- but that sounds like -- Id be on the edge getting it though the racing season to get to the off season. Also- do I really need to go to a 8 point roll cage? My car is show quality- gotta keep nice. LArry

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Originally posted by njturbo
TWhat kinda RPM'S are you turning lets say at 65-70MPH? I would hate to scream car with a 400, and why is there some many positives about the 200R4 built correct with monster parts if that is not true? if this is the case i could go with a 4L80E however this is a much heavier unit. I would like to run low 10's with a conservative tune. I am not buiding my car to max it out everytime i am at track and run 9's all day. Hey if i break into a 9 great if not oh well, the build is more for a reliable 10 without killing the car or the engine.

My converter is trashed so looser than most others. At 55 MPH I'm pulling about 2500 RPM. Converter is an Art Carr 9" 4000 stall but will nail 6000 RPM's off the trans brake in about 3 seconds. This was particularly tricky as it was occurring all year. Need to get that fixed this winter. I run stock rims on the street with 275R60's (28" high) and 373 gears. Slicks are 29.5" high so even having the converter and trans slipping all over the place I'm only going through the traps at about 6300 at 139MPH. Having so much slippage makes shifting into second particularly difficult as the wheels aren’t even on the ground when the shift light comes on.

 

[quickt]

A properly built 200 will be no problem for a hi 9 sec car. If you can Launch the car in manual first and it will last even longer. If the car is street driven alot you may encounter problems with the OD ring gear splines as they will wear on the billet forward drum shaft. Plan on replacing the ring gear every year on a freshen up. Not to worry you will not hurt the forward drum shaft.

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Originally posted by njturbo
I would hate to scream car with a 400, and why is there some many positives about the 200R4 built correct with monster parts if that is not true? if this is the case i could go with a 4L80E however this is a much heavier unit. I would like to run low 10's with a conservative tune. I am not buiding my car to max it out everytime i am at track and run 9's all day. Hey if i break into a 9 great if not oh well, the build is more for a reliable 10 without killing the car or the engine.

I'm not saying people are incorrect, just that the 400 is a much stronger transmission. 200R will certainly work. Low 10's what are you planning to run, 18 psi of boost? Gotta love those stage motors!

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Originally posted by quickt
A properly built 200 will be no problem for a hi 9 sec car. If you can Launch the car in manual first and it will last even longer. If the car is street driven alot you may encounter problems with the OD ring gear splines as they will wear on the billet forward drum shaft. Plan on replacing the ring gear every year on a freshen up. Not to worry you will not hurt the forward drum shaft.

If you can't do a lot of street driving and use OD then what's the point over just using a 400?

Just curious.

 

[Two Lane]

Lonnie,

I'll be in Louisville in February, & want to come by & check out the Powdercoated cases & talk BRFs with you.

I used to work in the 1300 block of Vine Street...'84-'85.
Is the blue bridge from Covington still blue?

See you then, & Happy Holidays!

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Originally posted by Larry
Had stock block running 10.40's-with 2004r. Built by Vince Janice, OHIO. Used Bruce Tolleys Billet parts with Precision 7 disc vigilanti- stage right brake- 6 point roll cage. Running 625-650hp, launched at 12#'s. All was good. Now going to Stage motor- 750-800 hp. Can someone tell me Yes or No on the 200. I could rebuild it each year- but that sounds like -- Id be on the edge getting it though the racing season to get to the off season. Also- do I really need to go to a 8 point roll cage? My car is show quality- gotta keep nice. LArry

6 point being the number of conneciton points into the frame? Mine's a full cage with 6 welded connenction points into the frame and mine just passed NHRA inspection for 7.50's and 180MPH so as long as it's a full cage I think you are OK. Get a copy of the 2003 NHRA rule book to be sure and look in the general regulations section, they list what's needed for a "sportsman" cage (9.99-7.50. - 135-180MPH)

 

[Two Lane]

Any body got a carbon fiber cage yet?

LOL!

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Originally posted by Two Lane
Any body got a carbon fiber cage yet?

LOL!

They could build one, just won't pass inspection. Don't think the carbon fiber would hold up too good to the acid test to check metal type.....

 

[quickt]

Originally posted by TurboDiverArt
If you can't do a lot of street driving and use OD then what's the point over just using a 400?

Just curious.

Hummm I never said you could not street drive. I said that the ring gear will wear and should be replaced on a freshen up that I would recommend once a year for a 9 sec 200. the more miles you drive the quicker it will wear. I put about 6000 miles on my car and over 100 mid 10 sec passes many low 10 sec passes and 71 to be exact from 10.80 to 11.20 and never had the trans out of my car for over 2 years. I also removed it last year for Scott Simpson to use at the last minute for Bristol last year and have no idea how mant street miles or passes he put on the trans. I reinstalled this year and never removed the pan and used all year. When I removed for inspection the ring gear was worn. I have no problem with a 400. I did have one in my car early this year. The 400 made my car slower and I did not like even short hops on the HIway. But that is me there are lots of other guys that dont mind. IMO if a car is not going to be street driven or the ET goal is like 9.70 or faster then I would use the 400. Use what ever works thats the bottom line.