3800 with water in cylinders

[wagon]

It's not SC, but it is a 3800.

I have a 98 LeSabre, the SES light went on, and the car died. It wouldn't turn over, probably from the water in the cylinders, but it would go backwards. When I tore the engine down, there was antifreeze in every cylinder, and the intake. I figured that the intake was full from my turning the engine backwards, and forcing it back into the manifold. Now, I spent a couple of days stripping the motor down and replacing the head gaskets, which didn't look blown. (Of course the only blown head gaskets I have seen were the ones that had catastrophic failure from too much boost). The center coolant ports on the intake gaskets were messed up though, but the intake ports weren't. I figured this might be the leak.

Well, I put it all together, and filled the radiator with water. It started up almost immediately, but ran crappy and the SES light was blinking. It only ran for about 30 seconds and died, then wouldn't even crank over. Hydro-locked. I pulled all of the plugs. They all were wet with water, and two of the cylinders actually had water pouring out of the plug holes, there was that much in there. Now, I may not know what the problem is, but I do know that this is not as simple as a gasket seeping. At least I don't think that it is. Does anyone have any ideas. The motor just turned 100,000 miles just days earlier, but it had no cylinder ridge, and you can still see the crosshatch in the bores. I did see what looked like a blemish/scratch in one of the cylinders, could this be a crack? I couldn't feel anything, and I wouldn't think that water would get in all of the cylinders from this. I'd like to save this motor/car, but I don't want to waste my time throwing money at it and still have to replace the motor. I'm wondering if I should just replace the motor with a used one. Any helpis greatly appreciated. Sorry for the length.

 

[brian]

Brian,
The plastic intakes are notorious to crack and fail on those.
One of my friends just replaced the intake on their `98. I think it is 2 parts. Not 100% sure though. I think you were right on noticing the intake having the coolant passage messed up.
Brian

 

[bruce]

The plastic intakes are notorious to crack and fail on those.

I've seen that also.

 

[wagon]

Thanks guys, but on this one, the bread box/plenum is plastic, but doesn't have coolant flow through it. The intake is aluminum, but was stamped that it had passed a leak test from the factory. This makes me think they are a problem area. Why else would they feel the need to check and label every one?
I ordered a coolant system pressure tester, and will be messing with it more tomorrow or this weekend. Thanks again.

 

[scottholley]

3.8 Intake

The plastic upper does have coolant in it, and it is common for the EGR passage in the plastic to burn through and let coolant into the motor. I would suggest getting a new plastic upper and trying that.

 

[corsair231]

I had the same problem on a 97 LeSabre. The egr port melts the intake causing a leak. My friend who is a GM tech told me that is where it would be and he was right. It is such a common problem that our small town dealer keeps the upper intake in stock. I believe it was a little over $200 but the local GM wrecking yard had them new and in stock from an aftermarket source for about $125. Replaced the intake, drained the oil, turned it over without the plugs in it and changed the oil and plugs. Used some starting fluid in the plug holes to help dry the cylinders and it's been running like a champ for over 2 years since.

 

[wagon]

I must be wrong then. I didn't realize that the bread box had anti-freeze running through it. Had I realized that, I would have suspected that in the first place. I'll be yanking the intake tonight. Hopefully that is it. Unfortunately, I already spent time and money in replacing head gaskets that it didn't need. Thanks for all the help, and I'll keep you all posted.

 

[wagon]

Well, I finally got a chance to look at the car, and.......I was wrong. You guys were right. The coolant goes through the bread box at the throttle body. That is where it was burned through. The pipe coming up from the EGR burned right through just like you guys said. Monday I'll pick up a new one.
You know, the whole time I was working on this car, I kept seeing things that GM did in designing this car, that made think,"Wow, they really put some thought into the design of this car." I was kind of impressed. Now, I want to smack someone up side the head, and ask them what they were thinking. Duh!
It's not fixed yet, but I'm thinking this is all that is left. I hope Thanks for all your help.

 

[JHenke]

Any good local auto parts store will carry the DorMan brand replacement upper intake, Try DorMan part # 615-180, get it, it is better than the GM unit. The DorMan is stronger in the EGR area. These are all over Ebay also.
I did one last year at this time, got mine at O"Reilly Auto for $130.00

For a web board and info go to www.bonnevilleclub.com.
Search for intake leak. You should find some good write ups about this and some pictures also.

 

[wagon]

Yup, you are right, they are on eBay. This one even shows the correct part number. I wonder what the chances are that I could actually get this for under $30.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/99-0...36474QQitemZ8019811898QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW


Well, I can't wait. The car has been down for too long already, and it will probably be up in the $100 range by the time the auction ends anyways. My local NAPA stocks them, and I just called to make sure they have one. It is about $140. Hopefully I can have it running this afternoon. Thanks again for all the help everyone.

 

[sean Buick 76]

You runnin yet? Common problem. Don't regret doing the gaskets, you will have more trouble free driving!!

 

[wagon]

Yup, I got it running the day I bought the bread box(plenum). I thought I had replied here, but I guess it was just my local Buick site.
When I pulled the old one, the intake was full of anti-freeze. I used a turkey baster to get most out, and some paper towels to get the rest. I cranked it over without the plugs to empty the cylinders, then soaked down the runners with WD-40 and cranked it some more to clean displace the rest. I put on the new top, and tried to start it. Wouldn't start. The plugs were soaked with gas. I pulled the three front ones out, and held them in from of the torpedo heater until fire stopped coming from them, and put them back in. The car has been going strong ever since. I think it actually runs better, probably because I cleaned all that carbon crap out of it. BUT, the check engine light went on the other day. So, now I have to figure that out. I am replacing the plug wires, they looked a little old, but I don't think that is it, though. I am also going to replace the O2. I figure that being as hot as the exhaust, then getting splashed with cooler anit-freeze probably wasn't too good for it. The stupid thing cost $100+, and they asked if it was the upstream or downstream one. I didn't know this car had two, and I don't have a code reader, so I hope I guessed right. It still runs good, but I think it might be running rich. If this doesn't put the light out, then I found a reader that looks pretty good for only $120, and can be used as a trip computer too. I'll pick that up before throwing anymore parts at it. If anyone is interested, here is a link. It looks pretty good, I just wish there was something like it for our TBs. Oh wait, there is,(Scanmaster) this just does more for more cars. Here is the link. Has anyone out there got one of these?? http://www.3n1autocomputer.com/ Thanks for all the help, everyone.

 

[wagon]

You runnin yet? Common problem. Don't regret doing the gaskets, you will have more trouble free driving!!

Well, it was a little aggravating knowing that I didn't have to, but even spending that money, I spent alot less than if I paid someone else to do it.
It did give me a look at the engine that I wouldn't have seen other wise, and get this: The engine had just turned 100K miles that week, and when I pulled the heads, there was absolutely no cylinder ridge whatsoever, and the crosshatching in the cylinders was still visible. To me, that means as long as the car is maintaned, it should last another 100k, plus I got to clean all of the carbon out.

 

[sean Buick 76]

Thats a Buick for ya. Same deal on my 80,000 mile 76 Buick 350 NO RIDGE, smoke or oil consumption!!! Amazing. But I have another Buick 350 with the same miles that burns oil so you never know how well they are kept.

 

[scottholley]

Reading Codes

If you don't want to dish out the cash for a code reader, and you have an Advance Auto in your area they will read the codes for free. Your assumption that puking coolant down the exhaust being bad for the O2 sensor is right on, and if the O2 is wiped out it can cause rich running. The codes to look for as O2 failures may be something like a P0131, P0133, P1130, etc. P0172/P0175 are rich bank codes, and could also indicate a possible O2 concern. The code you don't want to have is a P0420/P0430, which is a catalyst efficiency code, and usually means that your cat is damaged, and the only way a cat dies is by an impact, or being contaminated by fuel or coolant, and the only way to fix it is to replace it. And with OBD II vehicles (96-up), you have to have a cat or it will set a code, unless you have a custom calibration or are running a MIL eliminator, the latter being the much cheaper alternative (40-50 bucks IIRC). Good Luck !!!!!

 

[bison]

I had over 320,000 miles on a 3800 and it wasnt using hardly any oil. Less than half a quart between changes. Believe it or not the transmission in that car (1991 regal) was never touched except for filter and oil either.

 

[sean Buick 76]

That trans must have been a 4Le or whatever it's called. I think it is the 4sp version of the th400 so they are better than the 200R4 and 700r4.

 

[bison]

That trans must have been a 4Le or whatever it's called. I think it is the 4sp version of the th400 so they are better than the 200R4 and 700r4.

Its FWD bro. its a 440-T4. Your thinking of the 4L80-E which is a heavy duty OD used in GM trucks with TH400 internals, though there has been a lot of upgrades since they used the TH400.

 

[bison]

That trans must have been a 4Le or whatever it's called. I think it is the 4sp version of the th400 so they are better than the 200R4 and 700r4.

And yes there are a few guys in the counrtry running the 4L80-E behind the buick v-6 turbo. BTW its not a simple changeover or cost wise for most.

 

[flyboy367]

this will fix that plastic intake problem (which happens on a lot on the l36)

http://www.zzperformance.com/grand_prix/whatsnew1.php?id=23