400 Liter/Hour single in-tank pump?

[Taffy]

I have access to what the company told me to be a 400 Liter/Hour single in-tank fuel pump. It is the same size as a Walbro, actually looks a bit skinnier. I am going to be putting it in the GN soon to see if it will line up without any problems.

I am going to be sending this pump out to get tested to see if it really puts out 400L/Hr. If it does, I would guess it would put a full weight GN in the 9s. Since the 255 L/Hr Walbro has taken a few folks into the high 10s as a single pump.

Going to a dual pump is quite expensive ($500), and it is over kill for most guys that just want piece of mind.

If this pump works I am going to be selling the kit for about $300. I am sure that I will start it off as a special for even less.

Would anyone be interested in this pump? I am going to be running it, as long as it performs as the company claims.

ERIC.

 

[QuickWrench]

How do they intend to test the pump?

How do they intend to test the pump?

Here's how most pump companies test (and advertise):
1. Sink the pump into a fuel source.
2. Apply 14.2VDC
3. Collect and measure the total volume pumped in one minute (V)
4. Multiply that value x 60.
5. Volume x 60 = Volume/hour.

This simply doesn't cut it for a high-stress, high-pressure application like ours. The only VALID way to test the pump is to duplicate the production operating condition. In a stock TR, the pump would need to be flowed at 36PSI DeltaP.

In reality, the volumic pumping efficiency of any electric push-style fluid pump decreases geometrically as the line pressure against it is increased. In the average 11-second TR, total line pressure will vary between 60 to 80 PSI DeltaP at wide-open throttle, under boost. This is because the @idle pressure, boost-line off (usually 42.5 - 50LBs...or more) has boost pressure applied to the fuel pressure regulator while under boost.

Therefore, what I'd need to see is what this pump flows at 75-85PSI, as that's what I'll need from it under boost.

Not to say that this vendor's pump isn't a good piece, but I wouldn't touch one without knowing exactly how it's tested, and if the tests are audited by third-party sources as AC, Bosch, and others are required to do.


...and to be fair, if this thing can prove that it can keep up with Quad Air's Double XP Pumper setup, I'm in.

 

[Taffy]

The tests will be done at RC Engineering. They have a fuel pump dyno. For reference, the Walbro 340 puts out 255L/Hr at 13.5 volts, and 43.5 psid (actually it is psig since it is pulling the liquid from atmospheric pressure).

The 2 reference voltages that I have seen used on pump tests are 12 volts and 13.5 volts. I have never seen a graph using 14.2 volts.

In all actuality the pump output decreases exponentially as pressure goes up. Here is a link to a graph (at the bottom of the page)of a GSS307 that is on the Racetronix site. It shows what I was talking about.

Not too many folks here will need thier pump to flow a bunch at 80 Psid/g.

This pump setup will not outflow the dual intank that Red sells. That was not the intent. It was to be for the folks that want about 50% more than the Walbro 340, but do not want to do the double pump thing.

Since I referenced the Racetronix site, here is a link to his fuel pump kits.

Thanks, ERIC.

 

[Taffy]

Re: How do they intend to test the pump?

Originally posted by QuickWrench
...and to be fair, if this thing can prove that it can keep up with Quad Air's Double XP Pumper setup, I'm in.

I will hold ya to that!

 

[GinoRin]

Re: How do they intend to test the pump?

Originally posted by QuickWrench


...and to be fair, if this thing can prove that it can keep up with Quad Air's Double XP Pumper setup, I'm in.

Ditto. I'm waiting to see the results for sure!

 

[V8KILLR]

Just watching for now, may be in after testing and when I get the money.

Jason

 

[Syclone Dude]

I'd be interested to see the test using 13.2-13.5 vdc as well as at least 60psi considering those are real world numbers. I'd take one if the price is right.

BigAl...

 

[azgn]

it needs to be tested at 70-80 psi to prove anything...that is where most are that use a double pumper

 

[Scott Atk]

Good Luck with it Eric. I'm definitely interested if it proves itself

 

[Taffy]

OK, I will have to get the 400L/Hr pump tested because the tech guys at that company were less than helpful.

Another pump that I can get is the APEXi R-33 single. It would take a bit of engineering to make it fit in the stock location due to design. It will fit sizewise though.

I will scan a chart from APEXi that shows the flow rate of the single R-33 pump. This pump OUTFLOWS the DUAL QUAD AIR pump setup past 75 psig. It is close at 60, but less than that, the dual setup has way more volume.

The APEXi pump is about $400 so I am sure that it would not be a good seller. I hope that the 400L/Hr pump flows that well. ERIC.

 

[Intercooler]

What effect will this have on the return line before going WOT? Will a bigger return not be needed? For some reason I see tuning issues. I like my ATR DP just fine

 

[azgn]

call me a skeptic, but I'll bet these pumps fall on their asses at 60 psi and up and that is why we haven't heard of them.......or maybe not?

and Intercooler has a point, too much volume at low pressure (boost) will easily overwhem the return line and cause problems

 

[Taffy]

The APEXi pump puts out less volume than dual Walbro 340 pumps, but above 60 psig, the APEXi pump shines over the Dual Walbros. The pump that I am going to get tested might not do as well. Not sure.

I am sure that you have not heard of these pumps because MOST of the TR guys have no idea what the Japanese manufacturers have. Most of the TR guys do not run a Greddy Boost controller, or an HKS wastegate, mainly because they are afraid to put anything Japanese on their cars just because it is not American. That is too bad because the Japanese stuff is leaps and bounds better than the American stuff in quality and usefullness.

I am trying to get the Domestic croud familiar to what the Japanese have. Do not get defensive if you see a Japanese made pump that flows more than a Domestic dual pump setup. If it works, it works. ERIC.

 

[Taffy]

Originally posted by azgn
and Intercooler has a point, too much volume at low pressure (boost) will easily overwhem the return line and cause problems

Since the APEXi pump puts out less volume under 60 psig than the dual setup, I think that the return line wil not be a problem.
ERIC.

 

[Intercooler]

Originally posted by Taffy
Since the APEXi pump puts out less volume under 60 psig than the dual setup, I think that the return line wil not be a problem.
ERIC.

Let's see the data and you be the test mule car

 

[Taffy]

I have a graph from APEXi, but I have to scan it. Drag Sport Magazine is going to be testing a lot of pumps in 2 issues from now. They are going to test them the same way that I am.

I called RC Engineering today. I am going there tomorrow to get this pump tested. They said $60 for one voltage, and $40 for another voltage.

I plan to run the pump at 12V and 13.5V. Do you guys have any other ideas on which voltages to run the tests at?

I am sure that my car runs closer to 15 volts since I have a Caspers volt booster, but that would not be a realistic test for most peoples cars. ERIC.

 

[blackbuick87]

I think the point about the return line being overwhelmed at low speeds is valid. You cant compare a single pump flow at low speeds to DP's at low speeds because on a DP both pumps are not working at idle or 30mph.

At the same time lets give Taffy a chance. He is trying to develop new parts for us and gets treated like crap. I get sick of constant negativity at something that has not been tried. Someone has to try new things or we get left behind

 

[Intercooler]

I don't think anyone is being negative here at all and we all hope for the best. We are however pointing out the obvious from experiences now and want to assist in how to test for a fit with this application. You wouldn't want to buy something and it not work out when you take delivery would you? If it passes the real world tests then we all may buy one.

 

[Steve Wood]

not sure testing at 12 will do anything other than compare with other tests run at 12....

 

[Sleeper-6]

I think there is a need for it

I think that a pump like this is exactly what we need. It would be nice to have a choice in-between spending $150 or so for a hotwire/340 setup and a $500 duel pump setup. It would be nice to have a affordable single pump that can take us safely into the high/mid tens without running on the ragged edge. Good luck in your tests and let us know. If it looks good, I'm in.