400 Liter/Hour single in-tank pump?

[Taffy]

Originally posted by Steve Wood
not sure testing at 12 will do anything other than compare with other tests run at 12....

I am leaving for RC Engineering in the morning. Any suggestions on which 2 voltages to run the pump at? I am open to any suggestions!

ERIC.

 

[blackbuick87]

Unless you have a volt booster I really doubt the pump is seeing 14.2 at WOT. Maybe 13.5. Test there, and at whatever voltage a 340 is tested at. Better yet take a 340 with you and test both at the same time and same voltages

 

[tminer]

At the point that one would need more than a 255 l/hr pump, would the feed line be big enough? If not, then would using it as the return line overcome the return flow issues?

This would not help those that don't need the pump and are "buying once", but might make the return line issue moot for those that need the flow.

Tom

 

[Steve Wood]

Eric, all the tests I have seen have used 12.0 and 13.5. I think the purpose of the 12.0 is to establish a datum across the board. It is relatively meaningless in our cars as the electrical system is on the verge of doing strange things at this point.

The benefit of doing two runs is to be able to project some kind of flow differential with voltage change, I think.


I believe Red used 13.0, 14.0, and 15.0 which pretty much covers the range we would normally see.

 

[Taffy]

Well the pump is at RC Engineering. Russ is the owner and he said that it will probably go to over 100 psig. Not sure how he could tell, but this is what he does.

If you look at the pump curve the 340 falls off over about 60 psig. I am hoping that My pump puts out the same volume as the 340, but keeps going after 60 psig. If that is the case, then hopefully the return line will be sufficient with My pump.

It should be done by Monday, so I will post the #s then. ERIC.

 

[Racetronix]

Originally posted by Taffy
If you look at the pump curve the 340 falls off over about 60 psig. I am hoping that My pump puts out the same volume as the 340, but keeps going after 60 psig. If that is the case, then hopefully the return line will be sufficient with My pump.ERIC.

You are refering to the Walbro GSS307 NOT the GSS340. The GSS340 is very capable over 60PSI.

Jack
Racetronix

 

[QuickWrench]

With so much discussion on this topic, let me point out an important point about the return-line issue :

While it's entirely possible that someone will find (or has found) a single pump that will deliver volume equivalent to the double-pump systems on the market, there will continue to be one pivotal difference between these systems. Without some provision for flow modulation, a single, huge-volume pump is just useless for a street car. The Quad Air (Red Armstrong) Double-Pumper system, for example, incorporates fuel volume from the second pump ONLY under boost.

While this may seem like an unnecessary complexity, it's not. The reason for this on-demand-only activation isn't just to extend the life of the pump, or to cut noise (although those are positive aspects of the system). The boost-switch activation of the secondary pump is so that the return-line is not overpowered under normal driving conditions, which would cause all kinds of unwanted side-effects...specifically, the potential for line-pressure to skyrocket. I've used two different generations of the Quad-Air Double-Pumper system, and for my cars, it's money well-spent.

On the other hand, if someone were to develop a single pump that meets the following market demands, I'll put one in my next car, and any sub-11 second machine I work on:
1. Is capable of the ~400 liter/hour numbers (at WOT pressure requirements)
2. Allows SAFE modulation of the pump output under normal driving conditions.
3. Provides a drop-in installation, like other competing systems.
4. Offers a significant cost savings, by at least 25%.
5. Has a product warranty rivaling or exceeding competing systems.

 

[Taffy]

Originally posted by Racetronix
You are refering to the Walbro GSS307 NOT the GSS340. The GSS340 is very capable over 60PSI.

Jack
Racetronix

Jack you are right, I was talking about an Unmodified 307. ERIC.

 

[GNSCOTT]

Yea, but on a double pumper, if 1 pump fails on a run, your motor is history, on a single pump, if it fails, it just shuts the motor down. I think this pump would have to prove itself on the track, especially when you have Aeromotive, and other high volume single pups already out there..I hope it works.

 

[Old Car Guy]

Relative to the concern about a big single pump overwhelming the flow capacity of the return line, what is the inside diameter of the return line, anyway?

More than likely, if anything in the fuel system gets "overwhelmed", it will be the internal return port of the fuel pressure regulator - the passage that is opened up when the fuel pressure becomes too great. Normally, the diameter of the internal return port is less than the inside diameter of the return line.

 

[Racetronix]

Originally posted by GNSCOTT
Yea, but on a double pumper, if 1 pump fails on a run, your motor is history, on a single pump, if it fails, it just shuts the motor down. I think this pump would have to prove itself on the track, especially when you have Aeromotive, and other high volume single pups already out there..I hope it works.

You are assuming a total shutdown of the secondary pump which is rarely the case. When a pump fails it usually fails slowly / its output drops off. A fuel pressure gauge and WBO2 are your best devices to help prevent melt-downs.

Most Jap pumps such as the ones from Nippon etc. have been around for years and don't need to be proven at the track. As Taffy stated before it's the domestic market's non-familiarity with the Jap HP products that is the real issue here. The only three potential issues I see here are price, (the Jap pumps are VERY expensive) fit, (Jap pumps will not fit most domestic sending units without modification) and warranty (the channels for distribution and availability are of constant issue).

Jack
Racetronix

 

[Taffy]

Originally posted by Racetronix
You are assuming a total shutdown of the secondary pump which is rarely the case. When a pump fails it usually fails slowly / its output drops off. A fuel pressure gauge and WBO2 are your best devices to help prevent melt-downs.

Most Jap pumps such as the ones from Nippon etc. have been around for years and don't need to be proven at the track. As Taffy stated before it's the domestic market's non-familiarity with the Jap HP products that is the real issue here. The only three potential issues I see here are price, (the Jap pumps are VERY expensive) fit, (Jap pumps will not fit most domestic sending units without modification) and warranty (the channels for distribution and availability are of constant issue).

Jack
Racetronix

Jack you are reading my mind. This pump is indeed made by Nippon-Denso. Manufactured by them for the company that I get them from specifically for high performance use.

To address the 3 issues that you stated:
1: Yes they are expensive. Most Jap stuff is.
2: This pump is the same size as the Walbro. It will fit with no prob. The only prob I think that might need some work is the stock fuel sock that comes with the kit. I have not yet put it in the tank, but I will when I get it back from RC.
3: Not sure on the warrantee yet. I have not yet found out what the manufacturor gives. When I do, I will post it.

Thanks, ERIC.

 

[Taffy]

UPDATE!

The pump is done being tested. I am going to pick up the pump along with the test results. I will post the results and the graph tomorrow. ERIC.

 

[JDEstill]

Originally posted by Old Car Guy
Relative to the concern about a big single pump overwhelming the flow capacity of the return line, what is the inside diameter of the return line, anyway?

More than likely, if anything in the fuel system gets "overwhelmed", it will be the internal return port of the fuel pressure regulator - the passage that is opened up when the fuel pressure becomes too great. Normally, the diameter of the internal return port is less than the inside diameter of the return line.

Just FYI, I flow tested my KB fuel pressure regulator. It has a lot more capacity than the return line does. You can read about it at:
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/fuelsystem/Returnlinearticle.html

John

 

[Intercooler]

Re: UPDATE!

Originally posted by Taffy
The pump is done being tested. I am going to pick up the pump along with the test results. I will post the results and the graph tomorrow. ERIC.

Putting them up today?

 

[Taffy]

Well I got the pump back. The #s were not as good as expected. The company claims that Denso told them 400L/Hr so RC Engineering is going to test another pump. Maybe that one was not running up to par. I think I am being duped by the company cause Denso makes very good stuff.

The 2nd pump is going to be tested next week. After the 2nd pump is flowed, I will post the #s good or bad. ERIC.

 

[Racetronix]

Originally posted by Taffy
Well I got the pump back. The #s were not as good as expected. The company claims that Denso told them 400L/Hr so RC Engineering is going to test another pump. Maybe that one was not running up to par. I think I am being duped by the company cause Denso makes very good stuff.

The 2nd pump is going to be tested next week. After the 2nd pump is flowed, I will post the #s good or bad. ERIC.

Taffy,

These tests have already been done and can be found on the web under some import pages. Comparison tables are available for the Denso and Walbro pumps. The Denso pump does flow a bit more than the Walbro 340 at lower pressures. The price vs. performance is the problem.

Here is one web page that has pretty much everything you would want to know about the import pumps:

http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelpumpguide.htm

At the end of the day the Walbro 340 provides the best bang for the buck as well as a good support and distribution system.

Jack
Racetronix

 

[Taffy]

Well I am very dissapointed with the price vs. flow ratio of the pump that was tested. I truely hope that it was just a bad pump.

Anyways. If you can not beat them, join them.

B&E Customs is now going to work on an affordable double intank setup. I already talked to my CNC guy about making brackets out of billet. Just some rough estimations on what is needed I figure that it would go for about $400. I pretty much already know what parts to use, I just want to make a nice bracket setup. I have not even seen any of the other double intank setups, but I am sure that I can develop one for less $$.

I am still hopeful on the big single, but it is not looking good. ERIC.

 

[Syclone Dude]

Eric, either way, we all appreciate your efforts.

BigAl...

 

[Taffy]

Originally posted by Syclone Dude
Eric, either way, we all appreciate your efforts.

BigAl...

Thanks man. ERIC.