87 Grand National, First car

[Wrath]

Hello everyone!
My name is Ryan and I'm located just North of Dallas, TX.
Buckle up
I bought my 87 grand national sight-unseen on eBay back in august of 2015 and have been lurking these forums since then (my join date). I drove it a couple days for the first week I owned it, added less than 15 miles to the 77k on the odometer, (left me stranded) then it went on jack stands since then.

From knowing nothing about turbo regals or about how to work on cars then, I spent hundreds of hours researching just about everything on turbo buicks that I could and spent another several hundred hours (and $$$) replacing parts and restoring my GN where I find time between college and working. I finally got it all put back together and started it earlier last month (Jan 17').

From what I can tell, the car sat for nearly 10 years as it was last registered in 2008, but may have been abused before I bought it. The wiring throughout is a huge mess and one of the rear tires was bald from a burnout, aka no posi . The car lived its life in Florida, Louisiana, and Mississippi, leaving interior metal components with surface rust, yet the frame and body are pretty clean. Paint is not in good cond. with scratches, large chips, and some rust bubbles.

Modifications it came with:
77k miles - stock block/turbo/converter, Reds 93 chip - Hotwire kit - 42lb injectors - Accufab fuel reg - LT1 MAF and translator - underdrive pulley - front mnt intercooler - Be COOL rad w/ dual Intrepid fans - Atr Headers - 3" down pipe - High flow cat - unknown mufflers - missing thermostat - A/C leak - Cracked hood strut mounts - t-top weather strip cracks - big passenger exhaust manifold leak - rear diff leak - vacuum leaks - crushed body bushings - speedo and rpm in gauge cluster not working - Hood liner sagged and chewed up by alternator fan and turbo - Missing Antenna - Melted plug wires -

Some Additional Pics Here

Just realized my ECU may be a Re-manufactured unit looking through these pics.

Also, One of these: ATR EMC-10 fuel-air-spark control module.

From what I could find online, it's pretty old school tech. I'm not sure if the knock detector works, it beeps when I flip the switch. The spark adjustment knob doesn't work with the Reds 93 chip if I'm correct, and the fan button is disconnected. The Air/Fuel gauge works though.

What I did:

• I've done all of the Spring Cleaning except the diff fluid change. (Didn't Forget ZDDPlus)
• Bought a Scanmaster
• I swapped the power master to a Hydro-boost system.
• Fixed leaks from valve covers, oil pan, transmission pan and cooler, p/s pump, steering gear shaft.
• Rebuilt rear drum brakes and replaced front calipers with new shoes/pads/hardware.
• new tie rod ends, sway bar links, some vacuum lines, o2 sensor, plug wires, wheel studs
• Replaced leaking copper exhaust manifold gaskets with graphite ones found in back seat; remflex for turbo. Heat Wrapped manifolds.
• Flushed block and rad with external water pump, installed fresh coolant and 160* thermostat with 1/8th hole drilled, RMI-25
• trans pan drain plug
• bought some eBay front+rear bumper fillers ....(srry spoolfool)
• Found and bought a concert II sound radio and wiring harness connectors, replacement gauge cluster, steering wheel and GN horn button
• repaired stripped threads in the transmission for the pan bolt
• Compression tested, all Cylinders around 150-160psi
• adjusted TV cable, TPS to .44, IAC to around 30
• primed oil system before starting

I've documented just about everything I worked on the car, taking tons of pictures.
A few Additional pics Here

Upon first startup, heard an engine knocking sound for like 1 second then went away(maybe piston slap?), oil pressure around 65psi, idles like crap and wants to stall until warmed up and in closed loop (might be old gas, Reds chip too). Scanmaster shows bat at 14.3 volts. When warm, there is loud lifter tick near cyl #2 on pass side and a knocking noise near the bottom end like the pulley or something, I took a video Here .

Also, the car doesn't like to *Crank over when warm, which I was unaware of when I went for a drive shortly after I got it, and shut off the car. When I turned the key to the start position, I would head a faint click from a relay under the hood, the water temp light flash on the dash, and the interior lights would dim. This lead me to leaving the under-dash switched radiator fans on to cool the car for slightly too long, draining the already weak battery, and leaving me stranded.

3 hours later, AAA saved me. And no, the car was not overheating.

Still wont start when warmed up to this day. After I searched throughout the forums and put some thought to it, i believe that my Fusible link wires near the starter are no good, heat from nearby exhaust heats up the fusible links and restricts current flow, increasing resistance. I guess I need to replace those now.
Also noted a weird metal creaking noise from under the car when in reverse with the brakes applied, but not when in drive.

As she sits currently:

 

[LIVE4RDO]

In my humble opinion, you need to get rid of all outdated "performance" stuff and try to bring the car close to stock (leave the intercooler and downpipe). Get a good Turbotweak chip as soon as you can

And please let me first one to ask, when you get a chance (sounds like you have other issues to address first) please get rid of Monte Carlo exhaust.

 

[87gn-newbee]

Zip tied IC hoses? Classy

 

[Mark T-TB]

It sounds like you bit off quite a big piece to start , but are on a good path.
[as you already know] there is fantastic help on here, from generalities to specifics... I'd say don't hesitate to ask.
Hopefully you can get to some kinda "baseline" - without doing any damage - and then go on from there.
Good luck

 

[wb_7354]

Keep plugging away. If the car cranks over but will not start I would take a look at the coil pack. However there are a lot of things it could be. Good luck. And put some good clamps on that IC piping.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Wrath]

Thanks for the feedback. The Zip ties on the piping is just temporary to hold it together for starting it up and until I find the missing clamps in the messy garage.

Get a good Turbotweak chip as soon as you can
And please let me first one to ask, when you get a chance (sounds like you have other issues to address first) please get rid of Monte Carlo exhaust.

I am looking at getting a Turbo tweak chip very soon but was hesitant on a couple things. Just a street chip for now. Is it worth it to upgrade to the 42lb injectors to the 60lb ones? And does Flow matching matter that much? I was thinking that an RJC power plate could help equalize any abnormalities in regards to individual cylinder A/F mixture. Also, If I wanted to upgrade the turbo and add Alky, could I have it re-tuned, or do I have to send it back and purchase a new chip?

I have no idea what the previous owners were thinking when the put the exhaust straight out the back like a Monte Carlo, and when they had the whole exhaust welded from the downpipe all the way back! It would have been helpful to be able to remove the down pipe when cleaning out the engine bay. Going to have to cut it up and have some 3-bolt flanges installed, and bend the tail pipes to come out behind the rear tires like they should be!

Keep plugging away. If the car cranks over but will not start I would take a look at the coil pack. However there are a lot of things it could be.

In my case its a Hot-no-crank issue, cold starts every time. I started it up and ran the car to warm it up while checking all the fluids then drove it a block around the neighborhood for 1min. Car was running for around 25min total. I shut off the car and go to start it up and it wont crank. When I turn the key to start it, I hear a faint click of a fan relay and the dash lights dim, with the scanmaster showing BAT voltage drop from 11.9 to 9.6 (its off about -0.5volts when checked with volt meter at the battery). So there is a significant current draw but the starter is not doing anything. As I kept bumping the key hoping it would start and when tracing the clicking noise, all power cut out. I disconnect the battery, check the voltage (around 12.5v), and reconnect it. The car has power again but cuts out if I try to start it afterwards.

So what I think happened is that the purple signal wire from the ignition module was not supplying enough current/volts/whatever to activate the starter solenoid, causing the fusible links to heat up and break, cutting power to the car. I did run a backup 12awg solid copper wire through the positive battery cable heat shielding wrap that I can touch to the battery as a backup to trigger the signal on the starter solenoid and hopefully start the car, but I have yet to test it after going on a drive.
Should I be posting this in the General buick tech area?

 

[fast86gn]

That's probably a better place for it. I will move for you.

Where are you at north of Dallas? There are a lot of DFW area TR's.

 

[Wrath]

That's probably a better place for it. I will move for you.

Where are you at north of Dallas? There are a lot of DFW area TR's.

I'm in Plano. I've talked to a few Turbo Regal owners at the Dallas cars and coffee. I see that you are pretty close by in Garland, been around there for the Harbor freight tools. I would love to meet up with an experienced owner to check out my car!

 

[BEATAV8]

Doesn't want to start hot but it will fire right up when it's cold? That usually means something is leaking fuel into the intake manifold when shut down. Typically a leaking fuel pressure regulator. Check for fuel inside the vac/boost hose to the regulator. If clean and dry then next candidate would be fuel injectors leaking

 

[Wrath]

Doesn't want to start hot but it will fire right up when it's cold? That usually means something is leaking fuel into the intake manifold when shut down. Typically a leaking fuel pressure regulator. Check for fuel inside the vac/boost hose to the regulator. If clean and dry then next candidate would be fuel injectors leaking

I'll be sure to check the the vac hoses. When I cycle the key/turn on the fuel pump, the fuel pressure gauge reads a solid 39psi for several hours before it starts to slowly drop. Also, the symptoms when hot are that of a dead starter, except it doesn't click or make any noise at all. I did remove and take apart the starter and cleaned it up; the brushes had lots of life left. Sanded down the wire connectors and cleaned all the electrical contacts.

 

[fast86gn]

Yep I'm far not from you. Maybe the next weekend or two we could hook up? There quite a few TR's in Plano.

On the no hot start just to be clear... it doesn't turn over just clicks?

 

[Wrath]

Yep I'm far not from you. Maybe the next weekend or two we could hook up? There quite a few TR's in Plano.

On the no hot start just to be clear... it doesn't turn over just clicks?

Yeah for sure!

On the no hot start, it will not even attempt to turn over. Just a light click noise from one of the fan relays on the driver side. Starter is dead quiet.

 

[fast86gn]

I know you took the starter apart and looked good. But something is not right with that starter. Change the solenoid on the starter.

 

[John Larkin]

You can crank the car with the orange ECM wire disconnected for sure. I agree something is flaky with the starter. Check that the battery cable has continuity from the battery all the way to the starter.

 

[1986 Buick GX1]

You can crank the car with the orange ECM wire disconnected for sure. I agree something is flaky with the starter. Check that the battery cable has continuity from the battery all the way to the starter.

Check the grounds as well. A loose ground wire will cause low volts the same as a loose positive, although it sounds more like shorted out windings in the starter when hot causing high current draw and no crank. When the starter cools down, short goes away and will crank.

You wanted a high torque mini starter anyway. Lol
It seems there has been talk of the LT1 starter fitting (IIRC, please search before making a purchase). They can be had at salvage yards pretty cheap.

Edited: to say "no crank" instead of "no start" for clarification.

 

[GNRick]

Check for any codes. I believe no hot start indicates a bad ignition module. Might as well replace it if it's original or not AC/Delco anyway. And replace the coil pack with an AC one at the same time. As for the fusible links I think they work like fuses. They are either good or bad. No middle ground. Failing only when hot is not a scenario.

 

[BuickMike231]

I'm in Carrollton if you ever need a hand, probably pretty close to you. I am about 5 minutes out of Plano just off of Park/Hebron.

 

[turbo39151]

Congrats on the purchase. Looks like you have your hands full!
However, it looks like you've really dug in. I would second the opinion of cutting out all the old tech and misc junk. Get the car back to as close to stock as you can so that you have a good baseline to work from and then proceed. It's easier to chase down issues if you have addressed all the "suspects" first.

Curious about the 86 grill on the 87 model car.

 

[Lil Truck]

Stick with the basics on your hot no start problem!
1. Charge and load test the battery 9.6 will not let any system work on a TR. If a load check shows 9.6 you have a dead cell, it may start the car cold but not hot.
2. Inspect all battery connections, stripped, corrosion and broken wire.
3. Ground cable connection at block should be bolted at the bottom of the turbo mtg bracket in front of the pass motor mount.
4. Starter connections clean and solid
5. Starter and solenoid check/replaced

I expect you have a combination of the above causing the hot start problem.
Before spending time and money on expensive ignition parts make sure these are correct first!

 

[DeltaBravo]

How old is your battery? You could always take it in and have it load tested.

Also, what about your alternator? are you charging your battery between the test drives? I ask because, if your charging your battery during this down time, it might provide enough power to start and operate the vehicle starting and electrical systems. But if your alternated isn't working...then this will cause your battery to drain past a point that will not activate your starter.

Batteries are usually only good for 3-5 years.