87 Hot Air
- Thread starter bruce
- Start date
Welcome!
By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.
Turbojorge
Unstoppable
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2001
- Messages
- 1,123
Wow!
So how does the car run?
Does it feel any different at WOT?
More or less KR?
Tell us how the darn thing feels damit.
So how does the car run?
Does it feel any different at WOT?
More or less KR?
Tell us how the darn thing feels damit.
Turbojorge
Unstoppable
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2001
- Messages
- 1,123
TTT!
Well?
Also, how much boost can you run.
Well?
Also, how much boost can you run.
Bruce,
Why not use one of the existing Alky or Propane kits as they turn on only when needed? The intercooler is a definitely source for pressure drop and inlet tract restriction. This is something the Hot Ait guys have had to deal with for years. There are those with those cars that until the last few years have been experimenting. It seems like the Alky set ups work great on those cars. Actually this was something GM was planning for the 85 models as there is actually an "injection" light in the cluster.
As I see it, the 86-87 cars dont have the inlet/intake tract restrictions that the 84-85 cars have. But a lot of the guys (including myself) have turbos much larger than what can be fitted to a Hot Air car. I have run my own car (when it had the stock turbo) without the intercooler and can attest that there was little to no difference in KR readings. Since I did it when it was cool outside, I cant say how it would be on a 75° + day.
There was a performance increase from the additional boost I was seeing at the same waste gate setting. I know that you like to keep a lot of things under wraps, but I personally would love to hear how your experiment works. Mucho kudos to you again!
Why not use one of the existing Alky or Propane kits as they turn on only when needed? The intercooler is a definitely source for pressure drop and inlet tract restriction. This is something the Hot Ait guys have had to deal with for years. There are those with those cars that until the last few years have been experimenting. It seems like the Alky set ups work great on those cars. Actually this was something GM was planning for the 85 models as there is actually an "injection" light in the cluster.
As I see it, the 86-87 cars dont have the inlet/intake tract restrictions that the 84-85 cars have. But a lot of the guys (including myself) have turbos much larger than what can be fitted to a Hot Air car. I have run my own car (when it had the stock turbo) without the intercooler and can attest that there was little to no difference in KR readings. Since I did it when it was cool outside, I cant say how it would be on a 75° + day.
There was a performance increase from the additional boost I was seeing at the same waste gate setting. I know that you like to keep a lot of things under wraps, but I personally would love to hear how your experiment works. Mucho kudos to you again!
Re: Wow!
It runs really well.
There doesn't seem to a fall off in performance from extended time in boost like with the stock setup.
KR has never been a problem for me, nor is it with this setup.
I'm also going to try adding some more timing down low.
And it spools up signifigantly faster.
It runs really well.
There doesn't seem to a fall off in performance from extended time in boost like with the stock setup.
KR has never been a problem for me, nor is it with this setup.
I'm also going to try adding some more timing down low.
And it spools up signifigantly faster.
As a matter of Fact I have an OGS Pro-Pane setup sitting under the kitchen table waiting for some warm weather, for installation.
One of the points in there is for keeping the manifold, as cool as possible when NOT in boost so that it can absorb some of the intial heat of going into boost. It also allows for vaporizing fuel, and that seems to be a plus just in around town drivibility.
While folks tend to go off on atomization, OR vaporization, I'm looking for what blend works best at idle, cruise and WOT.
I have a pretty good idea of what AFRs my car really likes, so now the trick is finding out wat levels of atomization, or Vaporization that makes it perform best.
It's easy to quantify the Air Temp Change of things, but impossible to guantify the A vs V issue without testing. And considering the car's useage. For me, 12 sec of boost is just a warm up, while for others, that's all they want. OR, for a 4-6 sec. jolt, means something else. In just a quick encounter, it's over before heat really becomes an issue, you know like on those insanely short on-ramps.... Around the rt4 I75 interchange, and 70-75 you need the safety of being able to merge with traffic!.
Copied from the other thread... I don't know which one you want to keep, bruce?
Way to go bruce!
This should ruffle some feathers.
I am not overly shocked by the premises of this study. It seems that more and more "drag" Hondas & Imports are dumping I/Cs in favor of "hot-air" setups.
In most cases the I/C is just a Band-Aid to an inefficient design (these Buicks are riddled with Band-Aids), if there a means to quash the need and stitch the wound... why not?
You have my interest on this. Even as a prepare to stick a FMIC onto my car. Try and stop me.
If you wouldn't mind shooting me an email on the alternator relocation, I'd appreciate it. michael_lis@sympatico.ca
Good luck!
Way to go bruce!
This should ruffle some feathers.
I am not overly shocked by the premises of this study. It seems that more and more "drag" Hondas & Imports are dumping I/Cs in favor of "hot-air" setups.
In most cases the I/C is just a Band-Aid to an inefficient design (these Buicks are riddled with Band-Aids), if there a means to quash the need and stitch the wound... why not?
You have my interest on this. Even as a prepare to stick a FMIC onto my car. Try and stop me.
If you wouldn't mind shooting me an email on the alternator relocation, I'd appreciate it. michael_lis@sympatico.ca
Good luck!
This last summer I spent about 1/3 of my driving time watching the MAT. Bear in mind mine's relocated to the upper plenum so it's actually MAT. And my plenum is slightly different, and does absorb some heat from the galley.
Now in back to back taste tests, so far it seems the car definetly took a step in the right direction with increasing the amount of vaporized fuel given to the engine.
And surprise surprise the MAT tracked the CTS by about 40dF under most conditions.
Given that, it would only make sense to use it as an Interheater, for emission purposes. If you look at all the 87 MY cars, they all have more emissions gear on them, and here's the hotrod of the group, just running EGR. And what appears to be a ridiculous amount of timing. Well, at compared to what I run.
I've not proposed removing FMs in any way, just offered another point of view as to what one may do.
Might be some magic in blending FMs with a full time 7th injector.
Like I said earlier, it's about finding the balance of what makes your car run it's best.
TType85
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
- Messages
- 1,687
What about running somthing like the Pro-Pain kit full time?
Interesting stuff Bruce
Interesting stuff Bruce
TheNovaMan
New Member
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2002
- Messages
- 60
But didn't the MAT behave the same with the stock setup? And even though a FM wouldn't act as an interheater, wouldn't it still cause an inlet tract pressure drop? (Keep in mind I'm a turbo newbie.)
The 40d comment was about the stock setup.
Wouldn't it depend on how well designed the F/M is?. Just pointing out universal statements aren't always true. Yes, most any cooler is going to have a pressure drop across it, when it's actually cooling.
Sit behind a Pickup, that has a rear facing exhaust pipe extending at their bumper, and pull up right behind that. With the radiator fan on in your car, and pulling his hot exhuast thru your radiator will do what?. If the, Intercooler is heating air above ambient, then you have an interheater. And when you raise the underhood temp, that means the engine is running on hotter then what the air would be otherwise. There are all kinds of situations that effect things. Oh, and just to further play devils advocate, in the above situation, which car do you think will have the MAT recover quickest?, on a hot day in stop and go traffic?.
take an actual MAT to 140 on a hot day and watch how long it takes to recover to the post heat soak temp., with a stock I/C.
All designs are a combination of good and bad considerations. Tayloring the design for ones useage is a good thing.
TheNovaMan
New Member
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2002
- Messages
- 60
So then, for your application, would it make sense to wrap the tubing with some kind of insulating fabric? Or would the pipes get hotter than the ambient underhood temp under prolonged boost conditions? Might be an interesting experiment. 
Originally posted by TheNovaMan
So then, for your application, would it make sense to wrap the tubing with some kind of insulating fabric? Or would the pipes get hotter than the ambient underhood temp under prolonged boost conditions? Might be an interesting experiment.
Nope.
Yep.
No reason to, you answered you own guestion. I also mentioned the ability to recover from boost temps should be vastly improved since there is so much less mass to cool off.
FWIW, last user instructions I read on the Thermal Wrap stuff mentions Asbestos. Asbestos could be lethal for me. Lots of little details in life.
This is really funny , just cant stop smiling . All of the hotair cars that are trying to add an intercooler and heres a intercooled car going hotair .
No really though, I think your doing some great work bruce. This is what it takes is guys who are willing to experiment. I remember Dan Smith talking to me about doing this on his car a couple of years ago (a hotair'84 converted to intercooled'87, converted to hotair'87 ). He thought it was a fun idea at the time when everyone was giving him h*ll for his input in a discussion over a certain intercooler conversion kit for the hotair cars .
, just cant stop smiling . All of the hotair cars that are trying to add an intercooler and heres a intercooled car going hotair .No really though, I think your doing some great work bruce. This is what it takes is guys who are willing to experiment. I remember Dan Smith talking to me about doing this on his car a couple of years ago (a hotair'84 converted to intercooled'87, converted to hotair'87
). He thought it was a fun idea at the time when everyone was giving him h*ll for his input in a discussion over a certain intercooler conversion kit for the hotair cars .
