87 Hot Air

[JayLashua]

pressure drop sure does reduce available power, but increase density and decreased temp increases moret han enough to make up for it.. ofcourse when we talk about heat soak situations in bumper-bumper traffic on a hot summer day, yea, that sucks..

i had astupid idea, noone will ever do it .. but you know what would it take to have say a frontmout intercooler, and a little electric a/c system running through the core of th eintercooler.. they have similar designs on the kryotech overclocked computer systems, it would keep it indefinitely cold, and probably suck up minimal current from the alternator.. it might even be cost effective, maybe a medium sized front mount with a electric ac system embedded could be done for a few hundred dollars, and could probably re sell at 600 or so..

hey dont mind me if im just wasting bandwidth, but plenty of people have done this crap to make their athlon cpus run 500% over spec.. so why not do it to a intercooler?!

- on that same note, combined with the FT 7th injector or traditional alky..

does this make any kind of strange sense?!

 

[leo wagstaff]

Originally posted by 6SENSE
Yeah, its a shame, but Im sure he'll pop back up. got a block sitting around somewhere.

and A whoooole lot of parts

 

[TheNovaMan]

Originally posted by bruce
FWIW, last user instructions I read on the Thermal Wrap stuff mentions Asbestos.

(OK, but if it does contain asbestos, and even if asbestos does cause lung cancer, you only have to worry about it when lots of little strands of it are floating around in the air. Not when it's woven into a string which is woven into a fabric. You have to breathe a whole lot of the stuff before it causes enough damage to worry about. Chemicals are our friends!)
If I answered my own question, then why aren't you running an intercooler?

 

[Turbojorge]

As mentioned above, wouldn't a "full time" alky injection cool the charged air better than just gas?

You prolly would need a very small jet and a very big alky tank though. (Kinda risky if you ask me).

 

[6SENSE]

wouldn't a "full time" alky injection cool the charged air better than just gas? You prolly would need a very small jet and a very big alky tank though

I would say yes, and yes. Youve got to tune it just right or it will bog like crazy. Smaller jet will help, or 2 stage set up. Hey I think some guy with a hotair car is running a setup like that and running 10's, think his name is Lee . Think hes got the first jet coming on at around 2-3 psi. An "alky-intercooler" .

P.S. from what Ive learned H2O actually has the best cooling effect. The guys at George's Imports (Aquamist dealer) always suggested that I used two 1mm nozzles spraying straight H2O. Havent tried it yet, still using a alky/H2O mix with 1 nozzle.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by TheNovaMan
(OK, but if it does contain asbestos, and even if asbestos does cause lung cancer, you only have to worry about it when lots of little strands of it are floating around in the air.
If I answered my own question, then why aren't you running an intercooler?

Being Immune System supressed changes things, so generalities like inhaling a lot of little stands can mean inhaling one.

If you've read the article, then you know the up sides and downsides to a stock GN Intercooler, based on that info., then you can see where and when it has it's advantages, and what it's disadvantages are. For me, at this time, it's better to run without it.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by Turbojorge
As mentioned above, wouldn't a "full time" alky injection cool the charged air better than just gas?

You prolly would need a very small jet and a very big alky tank though. (Kinda risky if you ask me).

Guess you missed the part about the 7th injector running full time. How big of tank are you going to carry of alky, that will allow you to tun it full time?.

Using the 7th injector full time costs NOTHING. No extra pumps, solenoids, plumbing. Just an additional injector, using proven parts. It's not using any extra fuel. Just spraying a little fuel around to help cool things, ALL THE TIME.

Running a part time alky set up just helps when you're at WOT. Just cruising around it allows the temps to build, it does nothing to PREVENT the building up of heat in the system.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by 6SENSE
I would say yes, and yes. Youve got to tune it just right or it will bog like crazy. Smaller jet will help, or 2 stage set up. Hey I think some guy with a hotair car is running a setup like that and running 10's, think his name is Lee . Think hes got the first jet coming on at around 2-3 psi. An "alky-intercooler" .

P.S. from what Ive learned H2O actually has the best cooling effect. The guys at George's Imports (Aquamist dealer) always suggested that I used two 1mm nozzles spraying straight H2O. Havent tried it yet, still using a alky/H2O mix with 1 nozzle.

Again, see where the 7th injector runs FULL TIME.
Keeping the Manifold and related parts a little cooler in just normal useage.

If you spend some time doing chips, you'll see how lousy the timing table is, and how that item promotes detonation. By running too much timing, when just in cruise mode you build up the chamber temps., so much that you have to really enrichen things to cool them off so that you can go to full HP, without detonation.

H2O has the best cooling effect when used in specific ways, again general statements can be misleading.

Google for NACA, and in cylinder cooling will help with understanding some of the H2O issues, aslo reading Sir Harry Ricardo's High Speed Internal Combustion Engine book is an aid.
For the chemistry end of it search for Bob Harris at the DIY-EFI.ORG site, and he did a write up about what really happens in a combustion chamber when you add water.

 

[kenmosher]

Very interesting stuff ... for comparison, I'm going to drill a small hole in the back of my plenum "doghouse" and install a thermocouple.

We'll see what effects a stretch stock location intercooler have on MAT. Of course, I have to put the motor back together

We're going to dyno it on an engine dyno (if I can get the wiring harness figured out). Should be really ineresting to watch MAT, EGT and scan tool data!

 

[motorhead]

Speaking of 7th injectors... would there be any advantage to running this one in your application, bruce?
http://onlygoodstuff.com/product.asp?intProdID=50
It would seem to offer a better cylinder per cylinder spray pattern, also it would seem to cover a greater area of the manifold floor.

And, like you mentioned there is an advantage to propane, like alky, when looking for heat absorption. But, propane, unlike alky, doesn't (from early testing) seem to have a significant "bog" point...plus, the added fuel (which is what propane is) can lower combustion and exhaust temps... which in turn, will relate back to intake charge temperature, in terms of heat saturation at the source.

Have I got this about right?

 

[GS70350]

Originally posted by bruce
Heck in 14 years I haven't seen anyone take this approach.
There's lots of possibilities, this is just scratching the surface.

Add a code patch or two, and things can really get interesting.

Hey Bruce. When you say vaporization of the fuel, how are you accomplishing this? I see that the 7th injector is constantly "fogging" the air and the plenum with fuel, and i see that you are changing your injector constant(?) so that there is no real "extra" fuel, its just coming from the 7th instead of your other 6 now, and is now vaporized. That way you still have the same amount of fuel going in, thus your fuel consumption is the same.

In order to vaporize the gasoline it must be heated to approximately 450 degrees F or so, the lighter ends of the hydrocarbon chain begin to vaporize at around 125 to 150 *F, but the heavy ends take more heat energy. If you heat the fuel going to the 7th to this kind of temperature, you must have a separate fuel pump of some sort, at like, 300 PSI pressure, because when the fuel vaporizes in the tube it expands thousands of times causing what we know as vapor lock(carbureted cars are worse due to low FP). You can safely heat it to about 200 or so in a FI car due to the higher pressure which will keep vapor lock at bay and allow it to stay liquid till it exits the injector.

Are you only partially vaporizing the fuel?
Im interested in finding out how you are vaporizing the fuel mainly. Also, why not vaporize the fuel to ALL your injectors in the same manner as you have done for the 7th? If you did this, you would DRASTICALLY reduce your overall fuel consumption, extract MUCH more energy from the gasoline(200,000 or so BTU?) than your engine currently extracts(9 to 18 percent of that figure).

I say vaporize/heat the fuel to ALL the injectors, if you could do it, and adjust timing for the ignition AND the firing of the injectors individually you could optimize the setup, and i know that with your computer expertise you will be able to do this. You will have superb gas mileage, your engine will run cooler because the gasoline is burned for power instead of wasted as heat, your engine will lead a less stressful life, put out less emmisions, and have lots of power.

Anyone understand where i am coming from? please comment

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by GS70350


In order to vaporize the gasoline it must be heated to approximately 450 degrees F or so, the lighter ends of the hydrocarbon chain begin to vaporize at around 125 to 150 *F, but the heavy ends take more heat energy

Going by the MSDS sheets I've found the high temp stuff is at about 205dF.

With the way my plenum is, the floor of the plenum is below the runner floor, so no droplets can reach the ports. Any droplets have to lay on the plenum floor until they vaporize.

When in any serious boost conditions the MATs can get quite warm. It depends alot on the turbo sizing, and boost run, but 200-400dF temps are common.

 

[GS70350]

Originally posted by bruce
Going by the MSDS sheets I've found the high temp stuff is at about 205dF.

With the way my plenum is, the floor of the plenum is below the runner floor, so no droplets can reach the ports. Any droplets have to lay on the plenum floor until they vaporize.

When in any serious boost conditions the MATs can get quite warm. It depends alot on the turbo sizing, and boost run, but 200-400dF temps are common.

********those numbers are off, trust me.

By heating it to 205, only half will truly vaporize, the rest will become more of a oily dark colored tar like goop. its nasty, go take a large glass jar, fill itup with 87 octane gasoline. then go set it out in the sun, and let it evaporate, the light ends will evaporate, the content of the jar will decrease, and whats left is not as volatile, its darker colored, burns kinda sooty, and is corrosive. this is the heavy ends that dont vaporize. if you like, heat it to 205 to speed up the process, and the stuff will still be left because it has to be heated higher. ****

*****Hmm, do you mean evaporate? if its evaporating like this, check your plenum in a few weeks, you will see crud buildup, tar like substance or discoloration on your plenum floor. this is the heavy ends that didnt evaporate or vaporize. ******


Yea, the way i see it your stock intercooler was not helping any at such boost levels, and it heat soaked badly, acted as you say, an interheater. thats one reason why this has shown no decrease in performance if not an increase. I do however believe that a good front mount would increase your power. Vaporization of gasoline and getting it to work right, its not too easy.

Still though, how are you heating your fuel if at all?

 

[TheNovaMan]

I think the idea is that he sprays a little regular temp fuel into the manifold at all times, which contacts the manifold surface and absorbs heat from it. That's what causes the vaporization (or evaporation--they're the same thing). It's sorta like having a bag of ice on your plenum all the time. Of course, I could be wrong.

 

[GS70350]

thats exactly what it is nova, evaporative cooling of the intake plenum. put gas on your hand, then put rubbing alcohol, what absorbs more heat as it evaporates, or has a higher heat of vaporization? the alcohol, makes your skin cold, the gas doesnt make it so cold, so, i think alcohol may be a better choice to spray in here, but the idea also poses a problem because he would then be using 2 fuels, as of now, only one is being used and no more is used than was before. run your car on straight methanol bruce that would really do the trick, hehe.

 

[DCVING 6]

Originally posted by bruce

H2O has the best cooling effect when used in specific ways, again general statements can be misleading.

Google for NACA, and in cylinder cooling will help with understanding some of the H2O issues, aslo reading Sir Harry Ricardo's High Speed Internal Combustion Engine book is an aid.
For the chemistry end of it search for Bob Harris at the DIY-EFI.ORG site, and he did a write up about what really happens in a combustion chamber when you add water.

Didn't the Buick engineers play with H20 injection? I remember hearing about a slot in the dash for the "water injection" dummy light.

I think water or alcohol would be a good idea as well, but you would constantly have to fill a spare cell in your car for this. Gas on the otherhand is already there.

Can you inject water or alcohol through an injector? Use the 7th injector setup with a fuel cell full or alky or water in the trunk.

I'm an amature, so be kind in your reply's.

 

[GS70350]

yea the factory experimented with water/alcohol injection on the hot air cars. My car being a 84, has the power injection light in the dash. they never installed the system on the cars from the factory as they intended to eventually do. The intercooled cars came out and they basically just decided the IC did the same thing and was less of a hassle(fillling the water/alky tank and maintenance is not something potential buyers necessarily understood or could do).

 

[tracer]

Bruce, ignoring the 7th injector for a moment and getting back to the concept of removing the heat sink effect of the intercooler, which would be more advantageous;

1. A composite up pipe and manifold which would have very little heat retention?

or

2. Up pipe with an integrated intercooler (kinda like the "aftercooler" Vortech markets with their superchargers)?

As far as adding a cooling effect to the dog house or plenum, I know the 3.8 SC boys have at least a couple of 'in the stream' intercoolers available.

 

[Terbro]

What about instead of heating the fuel, you cool it with a fuel cooler, like the one found here: http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=2716&prmenbr=361 Or even super cool it with dry ice (-70ºC. I think). I don't see the dimensions, but it would be nice if it fit where the charcoal canister used to.

I don't know...

Terry

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by Terbro
What about instead of heating the fuel, you cool it with a fuel cooler, like the one found here: http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=2716&prmenbr=361 Or even super cool it with dry ice (-70ºC. I think). I don't see the dimensions, but it would be nice if it fit where the charcoal canister used to.

The hotter the fuel the more likely it is to be completely vaporized. Vaporized gasoline is a gas, and mixes MUCH more readily with the air in the chamber as the spark starts the reaction, so the flame front travels much faster thou the chamber, releasing more energy.

Honda some years ago ran a fuel heater to preheat the fuel to 300dF. This is one area where Turbo and N/A applications differ.