A question or two on Razors controller?

[Buick Beginner]

Julio,
First off, you got to talk on a 5th grade level, OK? Now, your black box has a pump speed control and a spray on point right? It also uses the stock 3 bar map sensor, (which I think I know it's purpose). Now, regarding the pump speed, do you set the beginning pump speed and then the map sensor steps it up from there? Or do you set the max speed and the map bumps it up progressivly until that point? - BB

 

[1badTTA]

First, I am pretty sure that GN's don't have a stock 3bar MAP sensor, only 2bar (correct me if I am wrong, as Julio just recently informed me the TTA does have a 3bar)

Second, the pump speed affects how fast the pump increases flow/pressure to full f/p in relation to boost increasing.

example1
turn on @ 5psi
10psi, 50% flow
15psi, 100% flow

example2
turn on @ 5psi
15psi, 50% flow
25psi, 100% flow

Only differences between examples 1 and 2 is pump speed. Basicaly it adjusts the point at which the pump will be running at full flow/pressure or simply 12volts, anything below that and the pump will be running at a voltage that increases at the same rate the boost rises.

At least this is how Julio described its workings to me.

 

[Razor]

Well there are two different black boxes

One will work with a 2 bar or 3 bar and it just controls one pump speed and one turn-on point. Thats the SAC standard alcohol controller. Uses the factory GN/TTA MAP sensor mounted on the passenger fender. No vacuum lines to touch, no Hobbs, no relays, no extra fuse wiring, no fabrication, and no going under the hood to fiddle with the hobbs or pressure.. If you can wire a speaker, you can do this. Thats how easy.

The other (PAC) is the progressive, that one has three knobs. A turnon point knob(what boost PSI), an initial pump speed for that turnon(starting pressure), and a "Gain" knob for how much pressure you want out. As the boost rises the gain controls how fast the alcohol pressure rises. Mine is set to come on at 6 psi boost and I run 26 psi boost on the top. Pressure on mine is set 10 PSI alcohol at turnon, and 100 PSI at 26 lbs of boost..so you can say it picks up 90 psi of pressure over 20 lbs of boost..hows that

The initial and turnon knobs are concealed behind an access door on the controller..since these will rarely be touched once set. the other "Gain" knob is located on a little box that can be mounted as is or taken apart for custom in-dash mounting..for those that want stealth. New pictures up last nite on the PAC. It involves using a 3 bar MAP sensor.. It will work on a 2 bar sensor, just that full advantage wont be taken with the 2 bar. Since the 2 bar ends regualtion at 15 PSI boost. 3 bar is good for 30 PSI boooost

Lastly there is a wire on the box that when grounded reverts the alcohol to initial pressure..idea is to wire it with the emergency brake and while staging the car, the alcohol is limited to the initial pressure(10 PSI) which wont affect spool..once the car is launched..woosh..

By turning the system on at 6 psi, virtually all transitional knock is eliminated, without bogging down the motor.

track testing this sat nite..if it doesnt rain my last month has had zero track due to weather..welcome to the Sunshine State..

If anything is fuzzy..hollar

 

[Buick Beginner]

It's getting clearer!

Instead of seeing a big blob, I see a semi-shaped blob. OK, here's what is happening with me: with my old Cheetah turbo the SMC seemed to work great, with the new PT-52 I'm not so sure. So, here's what I want and you let me know which box I need. I have an 87 GN and I'd like a little alky at 8 to 10 lbs of boost, then a bunch of alky at 20 lbs of boost. Do I get the standard box or the PAC box? - BB

 

[Razor]

You will need a PAC from me, a 3 bar map sensor from www.gmpartsdirect.com part number 16040749 or 12223861. The MAP sensor is 50 dollars plus shipping. On the 12223861 they say you need a harness adapter, if you get me the map sensor, I'll solder in the wires and save you the adpter $$.

Recommend you switch over to the shureflow pump and factory overflow if you intend on running past the 20 PSI mark. You can stay with the M15 jet in your up-pipe. If you need a spare jet, I have them or you can order them from McMaster Carr.

Also you can turn it on at 4 psi..without any bog issue.

If you like the pump mounting on the pixs of the GN install, I can supply you with the hose lengths and fittings needed..just ask. Amazon hose in Tampa will make the braided hoses. Theyre web site is www.amazonhose.com I believe.

Julio

 

[Razor]

Originally posted by 1badTTA
First, I am pretty sure that GN's don't have a stock 3bar MAP sensor, only 2bar (correct me if I am wrong, as Julio just recently informed me the TTA does have a 3bar)

Second, the pump speed affects how fast the pump increases flow/pressure to full f/p in relation to boost increasing.

example1
turn on @ 5psi
10psi, 50% flow
15psi, 100% flow

example2
turn on @ 5psi
15psi, 50% flow
25psi, 100% flow

Only differences between examples 1 and 2 is pump speed. Basicaly it adjusts the point at which the pump will be running at full flow/pressure or simply 12volts, anything below that and the pump will be running at a voltage that increases at the same rate the boost rises.

At least this is how Julio described its workings to me.

Trying not to get too technical

The tuning trick is to figure how much alcohol your car likes at full boost so it doesnt knock and is not overly rich(too much). This is the "gain" knobs function. If the setting is too low, you'll see knock retard, if its too high the car will be rich..Rotating the knob clockwise increases pressure..

Think of it like on an SMC kit pump speed knob that could go to 20. You figure your car likes at WOT 22 PSI boost pump speed 14. thats what the gain knob is..the setting 14 at WOT. the initial is set to like a pump speed 1 coming on at 6 PSI. so it goes from setting 1 to 14 in pump speed as boost rises.

Heres the bonus..if your car went to 23 PSI boost..you would get additional pressure(aka pump speed 15) So in essence, if you blew the hose on your turbo wastegate, and the boost shot up to 30 PSI, the kit will drench the motor possibly saving it

Any clearer

 

[1badTTA]

Too bad your PAC doesn't pulse width modulate the ground

 

[Razor]

Originally posted by 1badTTA
Too bad your PAC doesn't pulse width modulate the ground

It actually does... but not for selenoids yet

 

[Buick Beginner]

OK thanks

It's starting to come together in my head. One last thing, if I use the stock 2 bar sensor then the pump is going to reach it's maximum output at the 15 lbs of boost mark, am I right? So, with the 2 bar sensor I could set the turn on point at, say, 7-8 lbs with a light spray, but then the speed would ramp up from there and eventually top out at 15 lbs, because that's as high as the 2 bar goes. If that's the case then it sounds like to me you could always do that, then upgrade to the 3 bar map later? True? - BB

 

[Razor]

Yes

 

[Buick Beginner]

OK, just one or two more questions!

If I'm running the PAC with a 3 bar MAP can I tell the pump when to max out? For example, let's say I want the pump to give x number of psi at 8 lbs of boost, then I want it to max out at 20 lbs of boost, not 30 lbs of boost. Is that possible? Or does it have to ramp all the way up to the 30 lbs of boost mark? - BB

 

[Razor]

To answer your question yes. But cranking the gain knob to full tilt will more than likely spray too much alcohol for a stocker at 20 PSI. Using the shureflow pump you can also limit the amount of spray by cranking down the pressure..so when it hits lets say 80 PSI..it bounces of its built in limiter.

But....I see your question, but dont understand the point. Whereas you set your boost level via the wastegate. If you set it to 20 PSI, then why concern yourself with 30. As the boost rises you want more alcohol.. in the event of what I call "piano falling out of the sky scenario".. whereas your car will never see more than 20..unless something goes wrong with your wastegate..hoses,diaphram, puck,etc...And in that event, wouldnt you want the kit to spray the motor even more aggressively? If you need less at 20 PSI then turn down the knob and the ramp wont be so aggressive

I thought of limiting the output of the pump..like a max setting but couldnt see a reason..very easy to do on my part..but dont see why less is more.

FWIW,on July 28th this year, I had such an event happen to me, ...as soon as I got on the highway I jumped on the throttle and bam started seeing 4-6 degrees of knock..look over my guage was at 28-30 PSI boost. Had it not been that the kit kept spraying additional volume..i'd be rebuilding rite now...or doing a head gasket. I posted this on the TTA list..some said..thats why I only run race gas..The hose on my compressor failed and broke off.1/4 clamp still there on the nipple with a small section of hose.

Any closer

Keep em coming..

 

[1badTTA]

Originally posted by Razor
I jumped on the throttle and bam started seeing 4-6 degrees of knock..look over my guage was at 28-30 PSI boost. Had it not been that the kit kept spraying additional volume..i'd be rebuilding rite now...or doing a head gasket.

BTDT
Don't know what the actual boost was since my gauge only reads up to 20psi, but from where the needle I would say around 27 or 28 with a stock turbo. By the time I was able to lift my foot off the throttle, I was already hearing some nasty sounds of air blowing through passages that didn't exist seconds before. Blew 2" chuncks of headgasket into the valley on the #4 and #6 cylinders. Also dumped water (no antifreeze for this reason) into the Mobil1 oil I had just changed 3 miles before that.

Yea, a nice progressive controller that would shoot even more in the event of overboost would be the way to go.

 

[1badTTA]

Originally posted by Razor
You will need a PAC from me, a 3 bar map sensor from www.gmpartsdirect.com part number 16040749 or 12223861. The MAP sensor is 50 dollars plus shipping. On the 12223861 they say you need a harness adapter, if you get me the map sensor, I'll solder in the wires and save you the adpter $$.

Julio

OK Julio, I have a question for ya.

On the stock 3bar TTA MAP there is a 3 wire weather connector. It has a black, green and grey wore coming out of it. Why would someone add a 6inch adapter with a male and a female plug and 67.7ohms of resistance on the black wire?????

I keep finding things on my car that aren't stock, but you would never look for or notice. Now I find this, what is it's purpose??? I am so confused now

 

[Razor]

Its an afterthought(ooops) from GM. See the calibration on the guage and map sensor is off..so the fix was add the resistor to calibrate the factory boost guage.

Easier to do this than redesign the map sensor or boost guage.

In essence, the resitor limits the voltage to the MAP sensor to 4.73 instead of 5.. so by bringing down the voltage, it will recalibrate to 1.58 vs 1.73 volts at zero boost. Get 5 divide by three and thats your ranges..0-1.7 is vacuum..1.7-5v is boost. 3.4 volts is 15 psi..If you bypass that plug the guage goes up to 1 psi when you turn the key on..and the boost guage on the dash wont be accurate.

Hope this helps answer it .. And you thought GM was so perfect

Julio

 

[1badTTA]

I knew GM wasn't perfect, look at the chevette and the citation. Then there was the '84 fiero. Shall I go on?

Thanks for the info, I can finally sleep. It had been keeping me up at night wondering why that little adapter was there.