Alcohol or Minimum 100 Octane

[flipmo]

Everyone, I'm just wondering which way most of you would go regarding this issue. I'm debating whether or not to go ahead and buy an alky kit or just keep a minimum of 100 octane in the tank that I can get everyday. Money being no issue for the gas. Is alky better or no better than good gas for that price? I have never thought of getting an alky kit and know most people purchase them because they can't get good juice.

Any thoughts or preference if you had a choice - Alky or Good Gas?

Thanks

 

[PhilM]

Good gas BUT:

I'm sure you'll give up the gas deal at some point, unless your getting it for at or near the price of 93/94 and can always get it. With gas, you always burning it, which in the long run cost a ton of money. With alky your only burning it when you are under considerable boost. Also, what happens when you cant get your fuel, since many places dont carry anything higher than 94 last i checked... If you chip is burnt for 100oct, you'll be in trouble with that timing.

But if your a big spender, then buy the gas - heck buy C16 for that matter... stable fuel is a little safer, although the alky kits are very reliable... i say a "little" safer because the alky and the associtated hardware and electronics just add a failure variable (which is small) ontop of the fuel system, which is also critical.

Phil

 

[Razor]

I wouldnt consider 100 to be good gas. Its better than the 93 available here.. but good race gas is typically 110+ in octane.

I consider 100 to be like water injection. 110+ to be like alcohol injection.

And this discussion only pertains to octane.. not any of the other benefits associated like cooler temps, cleaning, etc.. And non-lead issues. But the 100 probably is a no-lead anyway.

 

[Scott Atk]

I was in a very similar situation for years. I would rather pay more for gas than introduce another tuning variable. After installing the RAZOR kit, I feel like a dummy. There really is no tuning variables you fill the tank and the progresssive logic takes care of the rest. One of the better expenditures for me in recent years. Go for it, and don't look back.

 

[jdsgnx]

Razor's kit is the only mode you can put on your car that will pay for its self!!!

 

[flipmo]

O.K., seems pretty straight forward so far among TB enthusiasts. Basically, I'm sensing the majority of Turbo Buick owners would, without a doubt go with the great gas over alky anyday because of the possibility of equipment failure (variable). That is what really concerned me as well even though there are so, so, so, so many alky users out there. Yes, I am definitely going to be out of I know a lot of money in fuel (no problem); however, I was looking for several to come on board and say, well, "The alky kit is far better while being cheaper at the same time." II guess that's not the case, hummm? I just don't know enough about the alky kit to want to substitute. Any more ideas/suggestions?

Thanks (Turbo Regals - Rock!!!)

 

[strikeeagle]

Listen up. I used 100 octane unleaded for quite some time before I purchased and installed Razor's kit.

My car knocked like hell on 100, and NEVER knocks with alcohol and 93, so I'm not sure what the hell people are leading you to believe.

IME, THERE'S NO COMPARISON - ALCOHOL WINS HANDS DOWN. Anybody who tell you different is certifiably clueless.

strike

 

[Scott Atk]

Well said Strike. Every response has been pro ALKY, so I'm not sure where he's getting the "just use race gas" responses.

 

[PhilM]

Haha... I couldnt count past 0 the people who've 1) maintained an alky kit & 2) used it daily ... and had it fail, simply because the actual kits arent what typically fail... its usually operator error (my fav. excuse!), improper installation, or improper maintenance... like all these crazy buick "electricians" clumping balls of wire strands together then just taping the ball up... they think that is reliable somehow

Just like anything, this extra variable is: the extra equipment, remembering to clean filters and lines, check the nozzle occasionally, make sure wiring is nice, etc... So when you add all those other performance parts... turbos, headers, ICs, standalone ECUs, etc.. you will adding these similar types of maintenance into the reliability equation.

For me, personally, going to get C16 is 1) very impractical, 2) very expensive (even in drums), and 3) a PIA!!!! This is why people run H2o or alky... its just easier on the street, and you can have your fun with little headaches for both you and your engine. Besides, we've been shooting it on blower vanes for awhile now with IATs going down significantly.

If getting race gas isnt annoying to you or a burden on your wallet, then obviously your special and it is preferred over alky... if you arent convinced it would be more practical and less of a trouble to run an alky kit, then just try it for a week or 2, im sure at some point you'll say F THIS!

(that is, unless you work at the track or something ...mmmm C16 on the street....... )?!?!

And finally, alky doesn't always win hands down.... with 100 oct, yea, id def choose alky...... C16... i'd choose that simply because 93 pump cannot really go above combined effective octane of ~110 or so (which is still purdy damn nice!). I'm leaving out burn rate, ICng, etc... benefits of alky out for now... you guys prolly already know that crap anyways

Phil

 

[flipmo]

Haha... I couldnt count past 0 the people who've 1) maintained an alky kit & 2) used it daily ... and had it fail, simply because the actual kits arent what typically fail... its usually operator error (my fav. excuse!), improper installation, or improper maintenance... like all these crazy buick "electricians" clumping balls of wire strands together then just taping the ball up... they think that is reliable somehow

Just like anything, this extra variable is: the extra equipment, remembering to clean filters and lines, check the nozzle occasionally, make sure wiring is nice, etc... So when you add all those other performance parts... turbos, headers, ICs, standalone ECUs, etc.. you will adding these similar types of maintenance into the reliability equation.

For me, personally, going to get C16 is 1) very impractical, 2) very expensive (even in drums), and 3) a PIA!!!! This is why people run H2o or alky... its just easier on the street, and you can have your fun with little headaches for both you and your engine. Besides, we've been shooting it on blower vanes for awhile now with IATs going down significantly.

If getting race gas isnt annoying to you or a burden on your wallet, then obviously your special and it is preferred over alky... if you arent convinced it would be more practical and less of a trouble to run an alky kit, then just try it for a week or 2, im sure at some point you'll say F THIS!

(that is, unless you work at the track or something ...mmmm C16 on the street....... )?!?!

And finally, alky doesn't always win hands down.... with 100 oct, yea, id def choose alky...... C16... i'd choose that simply because 93 pump cannot really go above combined effective octane of ~110 or so (which is still purdy damn nice!). I'm leaving out burn rate, ICng, etc... benefits of alky out for now... you guys prolly already know that crap anyways

Phil

Strike, Scott, Phil, you're brutal yet "Gr8" feedback guys, which is what I was looking for and really appreciate. I should have been clearer because my comments regarding what seemed to be a consensus for "great gas over alky" came as a result of comments from many people (i.e. other boards, pro, semi-pro drag-racers, many phone calls to well-known GN gooroos in the business, etc..) and not just this site.

I definitely don't knock anyone's proclamations of a certain product but I do pay attention to detail before making any investment - whether it's gainful or not based upon the valued feedback I receive from all of you guys. As an example, several have stated "Man, go with the race gas anytime, because ..........." Others have stated "Too many alky equipment failures resulting in blown motors, ................" Others have also stated, "Man, alky can't compare to C16 or higher fuel, since money is no issue, ..............." Others have also said, It depends upon how you drive, how much you drive, and when you drive (i.e application).......... So, that's why I'm taking everything into consideration. I want to not just make a hasty decision or a mere smart decision. I want to make an intelligent decision based upon evaluating all the pros and cons that have been/will be provided by those who know best. I have neven spoken with Razor or any other alky kit maker, atleast I don't think. But after considering the holistics and am end-the-end convinced there are additional benefits, I'll be next on his purchase list. I simply just haven't made a decision yet; however, even if it doesn't appears to be, am very interested.

And Phil, after reading your edit and your pros and cons of both, and also considering if money is no issue for great fuel, seems like you've already made a decision as well; however, I could be wrong and if I am, I apologize in advance.

I sure hope I'm not starting a new "great fuel or alky kit war." I'm just a guy looking for a mix of answers and the Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How justifications of each. It's easy to ask a billion questions about something you just simply have no clue about (ie. For me - alky). I think of most importance is how the information is interpreted and used, which is why I'm asking and calling on you guys for advice. Thanks Guys.

 

[Razor]

Every time I race my car I go through my personal checklist of things to do and go from there. I never crank the boost to the moon on my first pass.. i'll leave that for when I feel everything is working correctly on the car(a bunch of things). Fuel/knock/oil/tranny/sounds/etc..

Personally filling up at any gas station and laying down the power is priceless. These kits/systems have come a long way over the years.. constant refinement leads to that. The bad press comes from poor design and lack of competency as stated in the above paragraph.

Maintenance increases multifold as the power level increases. If your unwilling to maintain the motor and its associated items.. then dont create the power/work that comes with it.

I have never had a single system returned after its been installed. I have never had anyone lose performance with a system. And I hope the times in my sig speak for itself as to what can be done.. i'm still tweaking and learning.. guess i'll always be.

If your willing to add one more layer of things to check.. it will be a worthwhile investement into the performance of the motor.

And as always.. ever had a batch of bad C16? Thats been sitting in a drum for a few months.. Or a bad batch of 100.. locally our pump for 100 sold so little the gas would get moisture in it.. and at 4.25 per gallon.. it was not a happy feeling.

Race gas on a street car is a PITA.

I know I'm biased, but trying to share some perspective.

How much HP can be created on a Buick motor and 93 octane? How much spraying it?.. I still keep upping the power level and things are staying together..

 

[Raymond Bunch]

Every time I race my car I go through my personal checklist of things to do and go from there. I never crank the boost to the moon on my first pass.. i'll leave that for when I feel everything is working correctly on the car(a bunch of things). Fuel/knock/oil/tranny/sounds/etc..

Personally filling up at any gas station and laying down the power is priceless. These kits/systems have come a long way over the years.. constant refinement leads to that. The bad press comes from poor design and lack of competency as stated in the above paragraph.

Maintenance increases multifold as the power level increases. If your unwilling to maintain the motor and its associated items.. then dont create the power/work that comes with it.

I have never had a single system returned after its been installed. I have never had anyone lose performance with a system. And I hope the times in my sig speak for itself as to what can be done.. i'm still tweaking and learning.. guess i'll always be.

If your willing to add one more layer of things to check.. it will be a worthwhile investement into the performance of the motor.

And as always.. ever had a batch of bad C16? Thats been sitting in a drum for a few months.. Or a bad batch of 100.. locally our pump for 100 sold so little the gas would get moisture in it.. and at 4.25 per gallon.. it was not a happy feeling.

Race gas on a street car is a PITA.

I know I'm biased, but trying to share some perspective.

How much HP can be created on a Buick motor and 93 octane? How much spraying it?.. I still keep upping the power level and things are staying together..

Very well said Razor

 

[strikeeagle]

flipmo,

Let me put it another way. Remember the first time you used a Hurst Roll/Control? You came away wondering what the hell you thought you were doing? How in the hell did you ever live without it? Beating up your car and slowing yourself down before you got off your ass and spent $100 and finally put one in?

In a way, that's sort of what alcohol is like. An ephiphany. Except it's more. It's the perfectly logical solution to having a highly boosted car in combination with today's crap gasoline. It cools the charge air so well and reduces combustion chamber temperatures so well - consider it a necessity. We are asking these cars to do more and more with less and less. Needless to say, the factory never imagined we'd be running this much boost, or that gasoline would be so bad now.

I have a TR I strictly race. It's never on the street and of course it's never had anything but C16 in its tank. But did you know that guys are improving the performance and reliability of even race cars using alcohol - reducing combustion temperatures provides a margin of safety.

I do have a street GN that runs on 93 and Razor's kit. I have the boost set conservatively in the low 20's. With an unopened motor and that sort of boost I can go to the track and with nothing more than bolting on slicks run as many very low 12s as I please. Good enough to spank your average anything on the street.

If you saw my kit, the install, the performance, you'd jump. If anything, IMO, folks are UNDERSTATING the benefits of alcohol.

strike

 

[flipmo]

Let's Get-ter Done!!

Every time I race my car I go through my personal checklist of things to do and go from there. I never crank the boost to the moon on my first pass.. i'll leave that for when I feel everything is working correctly on the car(a bunch of things). Fuel/knock/oil/tranny/sounds/etc..

Personally filling up at any gas station and laying down the power is priceless. These kits/systems have come a long way over the years.. constant refinement leads to that. The bad press comes from poor design and lack of competency as stated in the above paragraph.

Maintenance increases multifold as the power level increases. If your unwilling to maintain the motor and its associated items.. then dont create the power/work that comes with it.

I have never had a single system returned after its been installed. I have never had anyone lose performance with a system. And I hope the times in my sig speak for itself as to what can be done.. i'm still tweaking and learning.. guess i'll always be.

If your willing to add one more layer of things to check.. it will be a worthwhile investement into the performance of the motor.

And as always.. ever had a batch of bad C16? Thats been sitting in a drum for a few months.. Or a bad batch of 100.. locally our pump for 100 sold so little the gas would get moisture in it.. and at 4.25 per gallon.. it was not a happy feeling.

Race gas on a street car is a PITA.

I know I'm biased, but trying to share some perspective.

How much HP can be created on a Buick motor and 93 octane? How much spraying it?.. I still keep upping the power level and things are staying together..

Wow - I just noticed the time in your sig and if that was done w/93 juice and alky -

Strike - Epiphany??? I like that Bro and I often have a lot of them; however, you're right. I always wonder, guess, approximate, imagine, envision, and visualize what would it be like to have this or that on the GN. Then after buying it (i.e. Turbo, Injectors, Heads) have always said "Damn", why did I wait so long. So, see what a little ass whipping and convincing from you guys actually do.

Razor, I'm going to give you a call in a little bit because sounds like alky can only add to the performance irregardless of octane rating without retracting performance. First time for everything and I'm hoping for the best. After testing and validating against the consistency of you alls statements, I'll be the first to aggressively lambast anyone who speaks against it. Now, let's test this theory - :biggrin:

 

[Sweet6]

I am getting ready to make the plunge to Alky. I did not mind buying 100 octane when it was 2.75/gal years ago. But now it is getting expensive and is a hassled to get sometimes.

I know there are some risks when getting the alky tuned in. It is one of those things that you need to put time into getting it right. Good thing Razor is there to help.

 

[PhilM]

oh... Ethanol smells really good too... like candy : )

 

[flipmo]

The Order Has Been Placed

Good talking to you Razor. Now get my kit done big guy :biggrin:. I'm looking forward to joining the proud alky club and those who have trust in it's performance. I love testing theories and if history has proven itself to be true - Ill be one Grand National owner. That future testomonial thread is already hot and thanks guys for both the asswhipping and convincing.

Get-ter Done!

 

[Super6]

alky injection

Is the way to go. i ran sonoco 114 for about 3 years in my car. i might put 2 to 3 hundred miles on my car in a year i drove it a good bit last year because a buddy of mine bought him a gn and wanted to cruise a little bit. We went riding one night and i watched my gas gauge as much as i watched my knock gauge i had to go back early because fuel was getting low and no where to buy it.......The next monday i ordred a pac alky kit from Julio and i think it is the best thing i ever done to the car....first run at the track(Reynolds) 12.48 at 111 and some change..that was with a stock turbo and stock intercooler. alky injection simply works and will keep a few dollars in your pocket for other things like tires ...............................Bob

 

[Ttype6]

Running alcohol and 91-94 unleaded (on the street) is as close as you can get to living in a world where every gas station has c16. As Super 6 put it,when you're cruising the streets and run out of racing gas you have to go home because you can't buy it anywhere. A forced induction gasoline engine (on the street) without alcohol injection is an incomplete package.

 

[pacecarta]

20 psi is nice but that grew old after the first day
no knock can make you greedy
on the street i run no less than 25psi and push it up a little at the track
bad part is if i get to make a lot of passes and run low i have to get stamped so i can leave the track to go get some more gas, they dont sell 93 at the track but they do sell methanol at 3.50 a gallon .

gas up at any gas station, 12.0s on the stock turbo ,dutt neck ,stock 132mi engine,

like razor reccommends , i make my first pass a shakedown with lower boost and look at every run on DS to see how much i can push it for that days conditions .
on the 86 i run on basically 93 with a splash of 112 but looks like ill be trying some alky on that soon if razor gets any faster