another water/alcohol injection question

[davbrucas]

another water/alcohol injection question(pls respond)

hey guys,
i am coming to your board from the mustang boards to try to get some help on this topic since not too many stangers are using this setup. here is my current setup:
-98 GT auto
-00GT ported and polished heads (9.7:1 CR)
-supercharger grind cams
-longtube headers
-svo motorsports roots style blower (~7-9psi)
-42lb injectors
-255lph hi-press fuel pump
-SMC water/alcohol injection kit

you get the picture...my questions are:
-any guesses on what mixture to use? i have been told to use ethanol and water at 60% EtOH and 40% H2O...
-i am going to use an aquamist nozzle b/c it allows me to drill and tap my blower intake. any troubles doing this?
-with this CR, how much boost can i safely run with the water injection, or am i just going to have to experiment?
-any other input you guys can give me? like which nozzle size, etc...


thank you for your time...
david

 

[davbrucas]

here is a quote from someone that i asked these same questions to. can anyone comment?

Straight alcohol can induce detonation. Most alcohol injection sites recommend not more than a 50/50 mix, anything more can cause detonation. Straight water works also but the addition of alcohol increases the cooling affect due to alcohol's increased evaporation rate and it burns. I used about a 70/30 mix with the 30 being alcohol. I've never heard of using WD-40 in the injectors. Not sure the pump will hold up to the chemicals in it. I'd stick with H2o and Alcohol

thanks again

 

[RobR]

I run 100% denatured alcohol with 0 knock. I'm using the nozzle that comes with the kit. Works fine for me as I've been able to run 6-7psi more than without.

For your car, I'd start at 6 or 7psi and pulley up from there. You'll need to test it out to see where you knock will come in. You should be able to run a couple of psi more than now. I don't know what the next step in pulley's are, but it'll take time to get it right. Once its there, your car will scream

 

[davbrucas]

rob,
thanks for the reply. do you think that there will be a difference b/t our cars since mine is a roots blower and yours is a turbo? i assume you have a turbo, correct? i am running ~9.7:1 compression also. will this affect how much EtOH i need to run?
thanks again.
here is some tech info from the aquamist water injection website... what do you think about it?

Try this link to Aquamist http://www.aquamist.co.uk/ under RESOURCES, then the FAQ section, item #10

10. What is the maximum alcohol/ water ratio I should use?
No more than 50%, otherwise you will increase the cylinder temperature rather than reducing it. Beyond that ratio, onset of detonation is more likely. Methanol freezes at -96 deg. C, 50% mixture will stop the mixture from freezing at around -40 deg.C.

 

[RobR]

My guess is they don't like denatured alcohol as said in #8. Maybe there pumps can't take it? All I know is mine works with 100% denatured.

Yes, I have a turbo

Your compression ratio will not allow you run sky high boost but you should be able to run more than the stock pulley allows. You just need to scan your runs and watch for knock. You can turn up or down the turn on and spray points to help tune it.

Tuning is where you'll maximize the boost level to run. I just tune for knock, once I start seeing some, I back down the boost. I can run 0.0 the whole run. That's what I was shooting for. I know some people don't mind a couple of degrees but I like to play it safe.

 

[davbrucas]

rob,
good info..it is apreciated. by 0.0, i guess you mean you have a knock sensor. where can i get one and how much? anybody have a used one i can buy? how hard to install? i will try different mixtures before i run straight denatured. during the tuning process, i will mess with the amount of flow and initiation boost level. thanks again.

 

[RobR]

Stock knock sensor. Ford doesn't use knock sensors?

 

[davbrucas]

not aware of one on my car..that does not mean there is not one! where do you get the 0.0 from? you have a gauge read-out of some kind? let me check into the knock sensor thing.

 

[WFO]

Originally posted by davbrucas
rob,
good info..it is apreciated. by 0.0, i guess you mean you have a knock sensor. where can i get one and how much? anybody have a used one i can buy? how hard to install? i will try different mixtures before i run straight denatured. during the tuning process, i will mess with the amount of flow and initiation boost level. thanks again.

here ya go

http://www.casperselectronics.com/cgi-local/store/commerce.cgi?product=INST

this is the gauge most of us use.you will need a knock sensor and esc(electronic spark control)module from a gn,both are available at the dealer or casper's.

if you call john spina at casper's and explain to him what you're trying to do he'll make sure you get everything you need.

i installed one in my friend's turbo supra and it works great.should work for you too.

 

[davbrucas]

WFO,
you do know that i have a mustang with a blower correct? not a GN. will this stuff work on my ride? it would be nice to have something in the car that buzzes when detonation is occurring. thanks for the reply.

 

[wilkinshc]

Davbrucas,

Something to consider also is to run a line from the boost side of the blower thru a 5psi (or what ever level boost you want it to come on with)one way valve to a sealed tank (top end of tank) then a line coming off the bottom of the tank with a 5psi one valve to the carb to spray in the water/alky mixture. No pumps to worry about. Easier to get the jetting right no matter what boost level you run. What happen is when the boost level reaches 5lbs it pressurizes the tank and pushes the mixture to the jet. The more boost you run the more the psi in the tank and the more the mixture. By run 2 one way valves you double the insurance on the only thing that can break. I made this same setup for about $60. The best mixture is 50/50 with 50% being the most you want to run as you can promote detonation with a higher level of alky then that. Not that you can't run 100% alky but you should get more out of 50% or a little less.

Chuck

 

[davbrucas]

chuck,
i already have the SMC kit. i guess i will put the nozzle in front of the throttle body and set it to come on at ~3psi. this is what steve recommended. i would rather put the nozzle after the compressor, but i do not think it is possible with this svo blower. i will probably run 60%H2O and 40%EtOH. i would like to the knock gauge and buzzer as a safety item...can anybody tell me if this can be hooked up to my system? what will i need and where can i get the stuff? caspers? thanks
david

 

[MikeJ]

davbrucas,

You will need a dual nozzle setup or you might want to wait to see if SMC gets their new controller box out soon that will increase pump speed with rpm. Screw and Roots blowers make full boost so low that it causes a problem. It really doesn't make any difference where you set the on point for this reason. The way the SMC kit is now you will not be able to setup it up to work in both the lower and upper rpm ranges. I am going with a dual nozzle setup with the first nozzle being boost activated and the second being boost and rpm activated. On my car I can feel the engine bog down until 3,500-4,000 rpm at which point the CFM catches up with the spray volume. It almost feels like a 10-20 hp shot of nitrous kicks in. Dual nozzles with the activation like I describe should eliminate most of this problem. I may also opt for the new controller box when SMC gets it out. BTW, I will run one both before and after the blower but I think on yours it will have to be before the blower and likely before the throttle body.

IMO, the standard nozzle that comes with the kit is too large for applications like ours. I think a 5-7M for single or 2-5M for dual setups works better. Also, the smaller nozzles make a finer mist that evaporates easier.

Also, if you want a great boost retard/knock induced timing controller check this one out: http://www.safeguard.20m.com/index.html I use it and it is an amazing piece of hardware.