Anyone running propane injection?

[wicked6]

?

Jay will you be doing a comparision between alky vs propane. Same car, same day. Dyno runs. Intake temp numbers, ET, Trap speeds.

I would, as I think others, will like to see the difference.

Pros vs Cons. For me it all comes down to the numbers and time slip.

But I like the fact that it lasts waaaay longer than alky.

 

[cwmccray]

HOT AIR

How about testing on a HOT AIR.... A 75 shot of NOS (Southern Folks call it NAAWSSS ), produced 115+hp. Alky has the same effect. Propane should be a BLAST..... I have a friend with a Powerstroke Diesel that added propane and propane turned his Powerstroke into a KILLER. He add a 4inch exhaust and a Superchip 80hp chip. I 'm not sure of base hp... but last dyno 408 hp, 699 ft torque (that's with 4 people in the bed to keep it from jumping the rollers) WHEW! It is a shame to see a Cobra, SS, and a Lingenfelter Z-28 drivers ask what the hell did he do to his truck. I hope the propane turns out to be a GOOD thing ! Trust me, HOT AIR guys will be lining up

 

[JayC]

If you read the first post I made, you will see that we have taken care that this system is as safe as possible. Can shiot happen? Yea.. will it.. probably not. I will restate what I said again, if you get hit hard enough to have a problem with this system, they would be picking you up with tweezers irregardless. I did mention that this system was "for off road use only", right ?

To sum it up, anyone with any common sense would never have an issue with this deal short of getting a piano dropped on them like in the cartoons or getting hit by a very large moving object traveling very fast.

As far as any other details, I'm not really ready to release much of anything else. When the kit is ready, Dan will release info. If you have specific questions about tuning, etc, I'm sure Kenny Brown will be happy to answer any of them. He and I both are quite a few months into this deal and we're both still learning from a tuning aspect and because of his input, the kit is constantly evolving.

Finally, as far as alcohol versus propane.. I could do a dyno comparison but I don't really have any test cars local. My attempts to get anyone to test anything local to me has been less than successful. I also dont have an alcohol kit laying around to put on them. You're really comparing apples to oranges here anyway. They both let you turn the boost up but the tuning aspect is quite different.

 

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

jay-
im sure that im one of many people that will be contacting you to test out the propane on their cars-
i live about 8 miles from a rear wheel dyno that my buddy owns and operates- id be willing to test the propane kit out vs. the alky kit once you get the valves for your propane setup-

here are the mods to the silver limited-
PTE54, MSD 50'S, BGC 23 ROW,THDP, STOCK UPPER PLENUM WITH POWER PLATE, 62 MM T-BODY, SINGLE NOZZLE ALKY KIT, PMAC FULL TILT TRANS, 9-11 CONVERTOR, HOOKER DUALS, PORTED INTAKE-
this car without the alky, and using a te44 turbo did 470 horses and 615 ft lbs of torque through the stock 90* elbow!!!!
ive had that car on the dyno many times to get it setup right, at the time it was running deeeep into the 11's with no alky

anyway, once you get the kits ready, look me up cause i'd like to try one out
thanks bryan wanner
wanner@kc.rr.com

 

[Downtown]

The only downside I've experienced is blowing the intercooler hose off twice. New clamps are coming. I have the car tuned as I would for a normal (non Variable-Timing) street chip at 17 lbs of boost. When I raise the boost, I do the rest of the tuning with the propane.

We noticed some things early on and the car has responded like we thought to changes we made, but in different amounts than we thought. Once we find "the spot", it should be pretty close for most cars, and if not, easy to get to. We have a stock 78,000 mile car we are going to try the next kit on. I will get pictures and notes and let Jay process it all.

 

[WFO]

Re: how big of container.

Originally posted by wiked87gn
how big of container that you guys intending to use for this system, where will it be located, how long will it each container last, i am also concerned with the propane thingy, that Sh** is flamable, talk about instant bomb and they will be picking you up with tweazers and a magnifying glass to find the pieces, i hope you guys make it safe for all of us, in the mean time i am happy with my alky kitt i just ordered.

no offense bro,but some of you guys need to pull your head out of your ass.

why do you think propane forklifts are allowed in enclosed areas where gasoline would never be permitted?propane needs to have an almost perfect fuel/air ratio to be volatile,unlike gasoline.if you are scared of a propane cylinder you must $hit your pants every time your gas tank gets under 1/4 tank.

later,sean

 

[tminer]

I heard that the Sneaky Pete version uses them little Coleman bottles.

My wife wants an auxiliary tap to hook up the new portable grill.

Them big block guys are going to be jealous cause they can only cook on the intake manifold.

Gonna have to lower the shift lite rpm to allow for putting down the weiner on a stick.

My brother in law can't wait to light off a propane powered turbo fart.

Tom

ps I am psyched. Can't wait for more info. Propane... rolling all around my brain.

 

[lyonsd]

Will the propane itself add any power, like nitrous? Or is it more like alcohol acting as a "chemical intercooler" and/or octane booster to allow you to run more boost?

 

[tracer]

It is my understanding that propane has higher octane than gas but lower BTU or thermal energy. Alcohol has similar properties but might have different cooling effects on the air charge due to liquid state. Experts please chime in.

 

[Downtown]

I want to think you are adding (a higher octane) fuel. Vehicles run solely on the same propane we are adding. If the question is whether or not propane adds more power without the extra boost it enables you run, I don't think so. I think it enables you to make more power by allowing you to run more boost, and I think you can run more boost because you are getting more (and higher octane) fuel.

I have never tuned with alcohol, so I can't compare the two. My understanding is alcohol inhibits detonation for whatever reason ("chemical intercooler" and/or octane booster were mentioned). It is also my understanding that alcohol allows 20-21 lbs of boost on pump gas, although I have heard higher claims. I have seen lots of T-Link frames with 23-24 lbs of boost and NO spark retard with propane injection.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm waiting on stronger intercooler clamps.

 

[DMan]

Counterpoint

There is a lot of information on this topic that I would like to clarify.

1.

My understanding is with alcohol, you are adding a knock suppressant by raising the octane of your fuel. With propane, you are adding a knock suppressant AND fuel.

Just to clarify, alcohol has a BTU content and it burns. Alcohol is a fuel. Your 02 numbers are definitely affected through the addition of alcohol.

2.

Also, FWIW, propane doesn't suffer from the "tip in stutter" that alcohol can. At one point, Kenny was turning the kit on at 5 PSI.

This is a tuning issue, not an 'alcohol' issue. If you have a single stage alky system that is designed to control knock at 24 psi, turning that nozzle on at 5 psi will obviously drown your motor. Many homebuilt alky systems use 2 or 3 stages to maintain tuneability and driveability. If you drown your engine in propane, that fuel-air mix won't burn either.

3.

Finally, as far as alcohol versus propane..[]..You're really comparing apples to oranges here anyway. They both let you turn the boost up but the tuning aspect is quite different.

I couldn't agree more.

4.

no offense bro,but some of you guys need to pull your head out of your ass.

How could you not take offense to this? You just told the guy his head was up his ass. This wasn't very nice.

5.

why do you think propane forklifts are allowed in enclosed areas where gasoline would never be permitted?

You could easily build a solid steel fuel tank for gasoline, but I'm not sure its the steel tank that permits propane vehicles inside. I would think it is because 1) gaseous fuels like propane and natural gas have very low carbon monoxide emissions so its not AS poisonous to have inside, and 2) propane is gaseous, so it disperses quickly if it leaks. Although propane is heavier than air...

6.

I have never tuned with alcohol, so I can't compare the two. My understanding is alcohol inhibits detonation for whatever reason ("chemical intercooler" and/or octane booster were mentioned). It is also my understanding that alcohol allows 20-21 lbs of boost on pump gas, although I have heard higher claims. I have seen lots of T-Link frames with 23-24 lbs of boost and NO spark retard with propane injection.

I ran 21-22 psi boost with a TE44, Thrasher 108 chip and blue tops, while injecting WATER only. No spark retard. Sunoco 94 in the tank.

I regularly run 25-26 psi boost with 50/50 water alky. Others run more and the claims are true, if you believe me, that is


Anyway, the purpose of my reply was to offer a clarification/counterpoint to some of the comments made about water-alky on this thread. There is LOTS of water-alky experience out there and we should learn from it. I'm sure propane will be yet another amazing advancement in the world of turbobuicks, and I can't wait to see Jay's kit.

Best of Luck to all and drive safe.

 

[JayC]

Re: Counterpoint

Originally posted by DMan
There is a lot of information on this topic that I would like to clarify.

2.

This is a tuning issue, not an 'alcohol' issue. If you have a single stage alky system that is designed to control knock at 24 psi, turning that nozzle on at 5 psi will obviously drown your motor. Many homebuilt alky systems use 2 or 3 stages to maintain tuneability and driveability. If you drown your engine in propane, that fuel-air mix won't burn either.

You kind of missed the point there. You can dump in enough propane to run 22 PSI or so on pump gas, turn the system on at 5 PSI and it won't bog the engine. I realize where you're coming from there with your comments, however, the point I was trying to make is it's really hard to get the tuneup so far off that it causes crazy things to happen.

 

[The Radius Kid]

One thing I didn't see mentioned was the type of fuel feed line.I would surmise it will be stainless braided external?Would that be correct Jay?
The next question I have is;If you are perchance, running the system on the street,and using some of our Sunoco 94,will this make a difference to what calibrations can be done to your chip as opposed to the same scenario without the system?
BTW,I enjoyed talking to you in Toronto Jay.Funny thing though,somehow I thought you would be much older than what you turned out to be.

 

[AnArKey]

On the issue on consistency:

Keep in mind that the temperature of the propane tank will dramatically effect the pressure, which in turn effects the flow rate through any given nozzle.

At 40F, it's 65psi
At 90F, it's 150psi

Basically that means you will get 50% more flow at a tank temp of 90F than at 40F.

Also, with a vapor system, basically the propane is boiling in the tank, with the vapor escaping out the top. A problem with this is that the boiling process cools the propane down. So as you are using propane, it gets even colder. This is why propane tanks have a rating for how much propane they can flow over a given amount of time. If you try and use too much, the tank will just get colder and colder, until there is almost no pressure and the flow stops.

I did lots of research into this ahwile back and figured there was no way to do it without a bottle heater.

Another point, propane that is a vapor when injected will do almost nothing for intake cooling. Some heat will be absorbed through the pressure change, but VERY little. 1-2F at most. With liquid propane, that goes up to about 10F if I recall. All these figures are estimates. It varies depending on air and propane flow rate.

Alcohol still does a tremendous job of cooling and cleaning the engine. Propane does neither.

I think the main advantage to propane is simplicity (no need to worry about a pump or priming the system), and ease of getting propane compared to methanol or denatured.

 

[ekool]

Originally posted by AnArKey
Also, with a vapor system, basically the propane is boiling in the tank, with the vapor escaping out the top. A problem with this is that the boiling process cools the propane down. So as you are using propane, it gets even colder. This is why propane tanks have a rating for how much propane they can flow over a given amount of time. If you try and use too much, the tank will just get colder and colder, until there is almost no pressure and the flow stops.

Despite the "research" others have done, I actually have and use the propane in the real world.

The propane is quite easy to maintain a regular temperature without a bottle heater.

I have done top speed runs where the bottle did not drop more then 10psi going from a 75mph punch, up to 170+ MPH speeds.

At the track, I'll do a 1/4 blast, turn the heater in the car on (all this during night runs usually) for about 1 minute and then shut it off... pressure is back where it should be (depending on your situation, but I run 170psi)

Still tickin, 110k miles, bone stock fuel system (punp, injectors, rails, etc, etc.) 131mph traps. See vid in sig, thats a propane run

 

[import power on]

Our kit is completed and will start shipping next week. After a few months of testing we got it ready to hit the streets. We run it in outr car (500+hp VR4) on a daily basis and are able to get 7+ more psi then without it. We have had the auquamist water alky setup but were less than impressed.

The knock suppresion is compared to running 101 octane but at $4/gallon...No Thank You

And as noted previous by others, you can not use a Nitrous solenoid...

check it out

http://www.importpoweronline.com/propane.html

 

[import power on]

30 pages of information

http://www.3si.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87482

 

[ekool]

Originally posted by import power on
Our kit is completed and will start shipping next week. After a few months of testing we got it ready to hit the streets.

Are you sure the "few months of testing" you are talking about werent really done by Dynamic Racing? (which has done over 6 months of testing, along with Jay Carter)

Your first post in that thread was done 29th of June. In that thread, you state:

NOW, On with the show....

I started testing at low psi just to be safe. Around 10-12. No knock and EGT is LOW. I kept testing raising the PSI checking the pocketlogger, increasing some more.

So, a "few months" of testing actually turn out to be less then one complete month.

And of interest to everyone here is the fact that you had never used propane until DR told you about it, and now you have your own "kit" that you've done "a few" months of testing on...

I think the Buick guys here would rather stick with a known contributor and tuner of the Buick community, not someone that rips off ideas and research done by respected community members and comes out with a "kit".

 

[import power on]

To set the record straight, Our kit has nothing to do with anoyone else's kit. Period. We never saw, purchased, or copied any parts from any other kit. It was a venture between Import Power Online and a very respected Propane shop called Diesel Permance Products. Diesel I say? Yep, our application is different but those guys at DPP know thier stuff when it comes to propane, it's properties and how it reacts in different situations. after "MONTHS" of working with them on a kit it is done. Yes, the final on our car testing was not months, but the devolopment with DPP was. I know, "EKOOL", you think we bought your kit (DR)(check your purchase records) we did not. We have not even seen it. So no, it is not a copy. Truth is that there are MANY Nitrous kits out there, many types of injectors to buy, many different pumps. Who is to say only ONE shop should come out with Propane Injection? I see no reason why it should be limited to one shop. That seems kinda silly. The buyer will decide what shop they want to spend thier money at. If you have a better product then you make the sale. And DR has great customer service which helps sales also. I wouldn't worry about DR not selling product. THey have a loyal following and that is for a reason. Remember with competition comes better products and competitive pricing! Let's just all move forward and give the Auto enthusiasts what they want!

 

[mygrain]

Alcohol still does a tremendous job of cooling and cleaning the engine. Propane does neither

Propane definately cleans an engine. I just saw a forklift engine with the head off today ad it was very very clean for havin 4000 hours on it. The fork lift looks like the biggest bag of sh!t and the engine almost looked new on the inside. It runs on propane.