Bad news today, need quick advice

[dthrock]

{EDITED:

Ok I finally found the determining question that will simplify this thread. "Do you ever want to put in roll-bars" Answer is No. So what I guess I am shooting for is an 11.99 car. With that said, please give recommendations. Also take into consideration that I am at 3700 ft. So a 11.99 here is more like an 11.60 or lower elsewhere}


Well I found out today that my main bearings are down to copper and my crank is scored somewhat. The good news is that I found out while replacing the seals and not from a frag fest. So here is the situation:

The engine is being pulled and sent to the machine shop tomorrow to determine if the crank can be saved. Since the engine is out of the car already and at the shop, what should I do to save myself double labor down the road?

While we were doing the main seals I also got a double roller timing chain and gears to put in along with a full set of felpro gaskets. So that at least is taken care of. We were also going to replace the valve springs and seals as well so those are on hand. Now with the engine yanked out of the car Im wondering if I shouldnt just go ahead and put in a new cam and have some other things done. So give me your recommendations on what at a minimum I should do and the best fit on parts for my setup. After I post this Im going to start searching the archives for previous posts, but since I have limited time to make a decision (should try to order whatever parts I need asap) I wanted to post here as well.

Here is my present setup. For the most part I am stock. As you can see from the sig below. I have just orderred a set of #50 injectors and a PT51 turbo that should ship tomorrow.

Be as verbose as you like as Im not doing this work myself and my knowledge of the engine internals is limited.

Thanks in advance,

David

 

[WarpSpeed]

I might skip the double roller, and just go with a heavy duty stock style timing set. I've never seen a double roller for our cars that didn't require a tensioner, but I have seen a tensioner that was eaten by a double roller.
Also, you might change the rings, why not.
Make sure the machine shop knows the clearances on buick motors are tighter than chevys.

 

[dthrock]

Originally posted by WarpSpeed
I might skip the double roller, and just go with a heavy duty stock style timing set. I've never seen a double roller for our cars that didn't require a tensioner, but I have seen a tensioner that was eaten by a double roller.
Also, you might change the rings, why not.
Make sure the machine shop knows the clearances on buick motors are tighter than chevys.

My car has the tensioner and I believe the rings are on the list already.

 

[NC87GN]

Warpspeed is right. Get a heavy duty stock timing chain setup. Federal Mogul worked well for me.
As far as the engine rebuild goes its depends on your pocket book $$$. I would replace rod and main bearings with rear main seal and new timing chain myself and be done. If the motor is out it that much easier to do. Question you should as your engine builder is how bad the bearings are worn? Crank is scorched but how deep? Your engine builder should know how much is too much in regards to wear. HTH

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

if its going to the shop then put in some cam bearing...they take a beating in these motors..mainly the front one.


as far as cam and other things it depends on if you plan to go faster or not.

if your going to be planning on going in the 11's or better than might be time for a cam.

i know 11's can and is being done with stock cam but its easier to do it with a cam and with less boost.

 

[dthrock]

Originally posted by REDS HOT AIR
if its going to the shop then put in some cam bearing...they take a beating in these motors..mainly the front one.


as far as cam and other things it depends on if you plan to go faster or not.

if your going to be planning on going in the 11's or better than might be time for a cam.

Go faster? Arent we all wanting to go faster? The question is, which cam for the listed setup. We are suspecting that the cam may have been damaged anyway and needs replaced. Will find out tomorrow.

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

which cam is a million dollar question...

everyone will tell you comp this and comp yhat but personally i think all comp cams suck (old old technology)

besides they were the same jackasses that alowed their test cams to be sold to the public as bujet rollers

i would recomend the speedpro 194-204 cam or the 204-214 which i run and im seeing more and more sigs showing 204-214.

i have one of both i have the 194-204 cam in my hotair motor and the 204-214 cam in my i/c motor.

both act stock and get killer gas mileage but pull lots better than the stocker

 

[Dan Thompson]

How are the motor mounts, tranny mount, cat hanger, and headers?

 

[dthrock]

Originally posted by Dan Thompson
How are the motor mounts, tranny mount, cat hanger, and headers?

All newly replaced or repaired (header crack welded).

David

 

[dthrock]

Originally posted by REDS HOT AIR
which cam is a million dollar question...

i would recomend the speedpro 194-204 cam or the 204-214 which i run and im seeing more and more sigs showing 204-214.

REDS,

Is this the one you are talking about?

BUICK 231-252 V6 EVEN FIRE

PERFORMER-PLUS CAMSHAFT KIT

Matching cam for Buick Performer manifold #5486. Use only stock ratio rocker arms. Do not use dual springs. Not for use on computer- controlled vehicles. See Power Package Guide, pages 118-121, for matching components.

Performer-Plus Camshaft/Lifters/Lube Package #5487*

For best results, use Edelbrock #7829 timing set. DO NOT use stock set.

Duration at .006 Lift:
Intake 280°
Exhaust 290°
Centerlines

Duration at .050 Lift:
Intake 204°
Exhaust 214°
Lobe Separation: 112°

Lift at Cam:
Intake .280
Exhaust .295
Intake Centerline: 107°

Lift at Valve:
Intake .448
Exhaust .472 Timing at .050 Lift:
Open
Close Intake
5° ATDC
29° ABDC Exhaust
44° BBDC
10° BTDC.

David

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

thats the eldelbrock version...from what i've seen its the same cam but i got a speed pro cam and lifters and im useing a stock replacement chain...i was running 90# on z-28 springs which worked fine but i've upped mine since i had started turning boost up really good and shifting around 6000 rpm.

speed pro # for the 204-214 cam is :cs1016r
lifter # ht969

i got mine from northern auto parts 1-800-831-0884
call them and check current prices

 

[TurboMike]

The two things that control "what to do"..

1. Your budget. How much do you intend to spend?

2. What HP/ET goal do you want?

 

[dthrock]

Originally posted by TurboMike
The two things that control "what to do"..

1. Your budget. How much do you intend to spend?

2. What HP/ET goal do you want?

Dont really have a budget, Im just going to fix whatever needs to be fixed but I only want to do this once.

How fast do I want to go? Well as fast as I can on the stock block.

David

 

[CPAKCP]

WHEN IT COMES TO RACING AND HORSEPOWER THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "ONLY ONCE". THE MORE POWER YOU PUT IN TO YOUR MOTOR AND THE MORE YOU RACE THE MORE YOU WILL BE BACK INTO YOUR MOTOR. YOU ARE JUST KIDDING YOURSELF TO THINK OTHER WISE. AND BY ALL MEANS REPLACE THE CAM.

 

[TurboMike]

Originally posted by dthrock


Dont really have a budget, Im just going to fix whatever needs to be fixed but I only want to do this once.

Then go best you can while your down. Engine Girdle, etc.


How fast do I want to go? Well as fast as I can on the stock block.

That's in the 9's (Yo Geno) Most stock blocks can go 10's BUT for safety you'll need a engine girdle. I built a car last year that went with the engine girdle, two steel center caps, JE pistons, billet roller... once again.. budget?

 

[dthrock]

{EDITED:

Ok I finally found the determining question that will simplify this thread. "Do you ever want to put in roll-bars" Answer is No. So what I guess I am shooting for is an 11.99 car. With that said, please give recommendations. Also take into consideration that I am at 3700 ft. So a 11.99 here is more like an 11.60 or lower elsewhere}

Sorry I guess Im not being specific enought. This all got dumped on me around 5pm last night and I was scrambling to decide what I wanted to do today as I dont want the engine sitting in the shop longer than needed

When I said I dont have a budget what I mean is I dont really have a limit on what I can spend. Dont get me wrong, I dont want to waste money but I dont want to say I only want to spend some figure.

When I said I only want to do this once, what I mean is I want to get the most for my money. I dont want to have the engine out now and do this work only to find out next month that I should have done something else while it was apart. For instance, I fix the problems now only to find out I should have put a cam in while the engine was apart, then I find out I should also have done new rocker arms, pistons, or port and polish the heads as well.

Yes somewhere down the road I may decide this isnt fast enough, but at THIS moment I want to stay with the stock ecm. Hence the 50# injectors and PT51 turbo. If there are things that I can do to bring the engine to peak performance under those conditions thats what Im shooting for. Unfortunately I dont know enough yet to be able to make those decisions myself. Thats what Im hoping all of you will be able to help me out with.

Soo... If you have ideas please list parts and specs with them as well as where I might best find them.

Dave

 

[dthrock]

ttt

 

[Steve Wood]

You sure don't need a cam for 11.99. Now you may want to put one in so you can tell everyone you have one...that's a different story.

It will be interesting when you pull the front cover and look at the chain an tensioner. I would not be surprised to see that the tensioner has started going thru the engine and helped remove the bearings. Bearings normally need a lot of mileage or a lot of trash to go to copper.

 

[dthrock]

Originally posted by Steve Wood
You sure don't need a cam for 11.99. Now you may want to put one in so you can tell everyone you have one...that's a different story.

It will be interesting when you pull the front cover and look at the chain an tensioner. I would not be surprised to see that the tensioner has started going thru the engine and helped remove the bearings. Bearings normally need a lot of mileage or a lot of trash to go to copper.

We were going to replace the chain anyway and its already installed. It didnt look to bad other than being a bit lose and the tensioner seemed to be in good shape. Im beginning to think that this car has a shady history. It says it had 58k miles on it on the odometer when I got it the end of last year but it had a tranny out of a caprice in it that cause it to show 1.4 miles for every one mile of actual driving. The last title that listed mileage was in 94 or around there and was listed at like 48k. There is also evidence that the motor has been apart before as the rods were over torqued, the gaskets werent stock and it had 10 over bearings in it already. Just sounds like a bad rebuild job to me.

Thanks for replying Steve, been waiting for you to pipe in as you always seem to have some good info to add.

David

 

[Steve Wood]

Then I would bet it was rebuilt very poorly...be sure the machine shop checks all the rods for correct sizing..

I don't like the double rollers because of the stretch...I would not use the tensioner because of the many reports of failure posted over the years with the double roller. We don't have enuf spring pressure to normally worry about failure anyway.

Be sure the machine shop also checks the thrust clearance on the crank...

I would consider putting in the hd cam bearings from TAPerformance unless they are really expensive. Front cam bearing wear is pretty common, I think.