Beating a "Dead Horse"

[stroked347]

lyon, i highly recommend Ed, he hooked me up with my AFR 205's and my solid roller cam.

 

[onefastjackass]

Originally posted by stroked347
Look at some NMRA factory stock class times..The E7's arent the only iron head jackass. Timeslips can only support a claim

stock bottom end 302's tend to blow up.....sounds like 5th grade and your wrong

you still have no clue as what the hell your talking about

Then go ahead and post youre combo so that I can prove you are Full of BS.Oh I forgot you won't because you know you will be proved wrong again.

Once again show me a stock bottom end 302HO that is running 6000 to 7000 rpm with no girdle that is holding together.Oh I forgot there arn't any!!

Come on post youre BS combo and lets get this over with tough guy!!

 

[onefastjackass]

Originally posted by lyonsd
What about ported and polished E7s?

They guy (Chris Smith who worked at Dugan and then Atlanta Chassis Dyno and then that place out by Road Atlanta) who ported my E7s showed me a couple of cars at his shop that ran high 11s low 12s with ported E7s (no power adder). Mine have a light porting job (some bowl work, exhaust bump removed, slightly bigger valves) and I went 13.3 with them on street radials and no power adder.

But I think I'm going to get rid of them and replace them with an Ed Curtis package (AFR 165s and a cam).

You are proving my point perfectly you have e7s with port work done.Not alot maybe but work none the less and you are only putting 276 to the rear wheels and 317.4 from the flywheel.For a 13.31 second run.

Keep them comming You just keep on reenforcing my point.

 

[onefastjackass]

By the way stroked you mentioned factory stock.If you ever looked into the rules or looked at one of the cars they are anything but stock.

And if youre car is that quick why arn't you leaving the 302 in it and racing factory stock.You know you would have finished second in points in factory stock last year in the whole country. LOL

 

[Rollin]

First of all nice kill IcePicker. Secondly, OneFastJackass and Stroked347, you guys need to take this "BS calling" somewhere else.
Thank you.

 

[onefastjackass]

Well rollin I understand youre feelings but when a ford guy comes on a buick board.Insulting the members calling kevin turch. kevin turd and posting 8beats6everytime.Then has at the bottom of his sig a bogus quarter mile time then I feel he gets what he deserves.

Which happened to be me pointing it out.Had he not come on our board name calling and being openly hostile then I would have just let it go and not made an issue of it.

I hope you can understand the difference and understand that this was the reason I did it.

Thanks Kevin

 

[GS_Beavis]

It's no wonder people find Rustangs and their owners so annoying..........

 

[lyonsd]

Originally posted by onefastjackass
You are proving my point perfectly you have e7s with port work done.Not alot maybe but work none the less and you are only putting 276 to the rear wheels and 317.4 from the flywheel.For a 13.31 second run.

Keep them comming You just keep on reenforcing my point.

This doesn't disprove that it's possible to run low 12s with more port work done. Expecially with slicks.

My heads were "lightly massaged". With a full port, polish and valve job and some slicks, seems to me low 12s would be easy.

 

[onefastjackass]

I sent you email,But I guess you don't have youre correct email on file.

People on this board are tired of hearing this discussion so I tried to email you some facts.

If you are interested in port flow numbers for ported e7's etc email me with a valid email and I will provide the info.

If not this conversation is over!

 

[stroked347]

one fast, there is nothing bogus about the times, i have timeslips. AND, originally you had said you NEEDED aluminum heads, girdle, and 7k shifts to go 12.2, and thats just not true.

 

[onefastjackass]

A person can show timeslips all day long that doesn't make them theres or even from a certain car.

I could get one from one of my buddys tube chassis 632 big block. that runs in the high 6 low 7 second range.As you should know they don't have owner or make on them.

If you were so certain you would have written back with youre combo to prove youre times.That way they could easily be proved or disproved.If I was wrong I would have admitted it.

Also who said you still don't have to use aftermarket aluminum and high revs 6000-7000.with a girdle to move a 3300 n/a mustang to those times??I still stand by that stance.

Once again read the rules for factory stock and see where youre assumptions are lacking.One assumption is that they are 3300 pound cars and that they are using cast iron stock heads.They arn't!!

But once again people on this board being that it is a buick board are getting tired of hearing about mustang heads!!

They don't care about mustang heads they care about buicks!!!

Email me if you want to continue this conversation if not people are tired of hearing about it!

 

[stroked347]

gt-40p's, comp281 cam, cobra intake, stock bottom end, shifted at 6k. but who cares, its over.

About your last few sentences, it what makes life so "interesting"

 

[Bob Cosby]

E-gads. No wish to take sides, but I would like to post some factual information concerning HP, potential ET, and E7 heads. If you don't wish to believe it, that is your choice. If you don't wish to read it, don't.

First....you do not need anywhere near 360 RWHP to go 12.20 @ 3300 lbs. My Cobra has gone 12.02 @ 3450 lbs (150 lbs more) with only 310 RWHP (50 RWHP less) - on drag radials. That was in NMRA Factory Stock trim, verified weight and ET. Atco, NJ, NMRA race in August 2002.

It has gone as quick as 11.67 @ 3225 lbs (75 lbs under the weight referenced in preceding posts) with the same 310 RWHP on slicks and in good air (~ 200 ft above). BTW....this was most certainly with 7k rpm shifts - that is essentially stock redline on a DOHC 4.6.

My old 88 Coupe went 11.9x with ported E7 heads, ported stock intake, and a good cam. It made just shy of 290 RWHP, and weighed ~3125 lbs. Shift rpm was ~6200. That was several years ago, and I do not remember the flow numbers.

Here's a DYNO showing stock heads/intake/cam, and after installing ported heads/intake and custom cam. Of note, the car ran 12.5's with the lower 237 RWHP number (untouched engine) @ ~3150 lbs.

I have a set of unported E7 heads on the same 88 Coupe right now. It is an NMRA-legal Factory stock setup, with a stock cam (not a regrind - stock), untouched Cobra intake, unported heads with a good valve job and slightly larger valves, flattop pistons, shorty headers (required), etc, etc. I will not give out flow numbers on the heads (they are in excess of 165 cfm intake - remember, unported), but the combo makes ~275 RWHP. With a really bad 1.74 60 ft (Drag Radials - required), it has gone as quick as 12.18 in 96F heat (MIR in Maryland a couple of weeks ago). Raceweight is an NMRA-mandated 3050 lbs. Shift rpm is only 6100 (stock cam).

In the above examples, I used my personal cars and experience because (obviously) I'm most familier with my own stuff. However, others have run similar times with similar powr.

All NMRA F/S cars (except 4.6's) have to use iron heads - there are not exceptions. Your choices are stock E7's or GT-40's. All must be unported. Valve jobs legal. Stock cams required. Unmodified stock intake, or unmodified Cobra intake.

You cannot run aluminum heads. You cannot port the heads. You cannot run any intake other than those two I listed. They cannot be touched (not even port matched). You have to run the stock cam - and I mean stock, not "stock lift" or "stock regrind" - stock. NMRA has and will confiscate cams from the faster cars, take them back to their shop, put them on the Cam doctor to verify the specs, then send them back to the racer.

F/S RULES

E7-headed cars can be light - 3050 with driver. However, GT-40 headed cars must weigh 3300 lbs (with driver). Weight is verified after each pass in qualifying and eliminations - no exceptions.

The quickest cars in the class are making in excess of 340 RWHP on those unported GT-40 heads, and going 11.8x on the required Drag Radials.

 

[onefastjackass]

Originally posted by Bob Cosby

It has gone as quick as 11.67 @ 3225 lbs (75 lbs under the weight referenced in preceding posts) with the same 310 RWHP on slicks and in good air (~ 200 ft above). BTW....this was most certainly with 7k rpm shifts - that is essentially stock redline on a DOHC 4.6.

You just about had me until this part of the post.A N/A car that has 310 rwhp in bad air has much more in good air at lower elevations.So you couldn't have made the runs with the same 310 RWHP. But thanks for participating

 

[onefastjackass]

Also gt40's and gt40p's with bigger valves made by frpp are not stock mustang heads.That's like me bolting on a set of frpp scj heads on my big block ford in a truck and saying that it has stock heads.What a laugh.

Also you freely admit trhat the guys are spinning 7000 rpms.WE were talking about 5.0 engines not mod engines but what the hey.Now tell me that the 5.0 based engines arn't running a girdle at 7000.

Youre hp has either changed or you are in no way running 310 and running 12.02.

I suppose that the track had the same elevation humidity and pressure as the dyno?LOL

Also you probibly did no tuneing at the track right?

I wish I had the time to address youre post more right now but work await's me.

 

[Bob Cosby]

Thanks for participating.....indeed.

310 RWHP is what the car made on the Chassia dyno, SAE corrected. Do you understand SAE corrected? Among other things, this is the most common correction factor used by dyno operators. However, it is very easy to convert that to a STD correction - that being "Standard". Do you know what that is?

Anyways, here is the dyno - both SAE and STD:

99 Cobra SAE
99 Cobra STD

First, I'd like to say I was somewhat inaccurate - I made 312 RWHP not 310.

Second, those are the same runs - only difference is that one is corrected to SAE, the other to STD.

Third, those numbers were obtained with a 31 spline traction lok differential vice the Detroit locker that was in the car when I made that pass. The locker is easily twice the weight of the traction lok - and it spins. You think I made more or less power with it?

Finally, that 11.67 run was made in air that was ~200 ft above sea level (Cecil County, 8 Nov 02, about 11 am - look it up at www.wunderground.com if you want). That's pretty close to the STD correction - or somewhere between 315 and 320 RWHP. Regardless, because most people reference SAE, my post was quite accurate....albiet the 2 RWHP.

Did you chose to ignore the other info I provided? We have F/S cars running 11.8 on DR's making 340 RWHP (SAE corrected), and doing it in less-than optimum conditions (such as Columbus, Ohio in May). Those cars weigh 3300 lbs, run 4 tenths quicker than your reference of 12.2, and have 20 RWHP less.

Bottom line is your statements I referenced were incorrect. You can chose to attempt to continue to defend them if you like - but it won't change the outcome.

 

[Bob Cosby]

Ok. Off to quote land we go.

Originally posted by onefastjackass
Also gt40's and gt40p's with bigger valves made by frpp are not stock mustang heads.

Did anybody say they were? You said, and I quote:

"Once again read the rules for factory stock and see where youre assumptions are lacking.One assumption is that they are 3300 pound cars and that they are using cast iron stock heads.They arn't!!"

That is incorrect, per the statements I made in my first post, and the rules I linked to. Notice until you posted this, noone was trying to claim that the GT40 heads with larger valves were "stock". I was correcting your statement that they are aluminum (they aren't nor can they be in F/S).

That's like me bolting on a set of frpp scj heads on my big block ford in a truck and saying that it has stock heads.What a laugh.

Totally irrelevant to this discussion. The issue was aluminum vs iron.

Also you freely admit trhat the guys are spinning 7000 rpms.

You should read more closely. I "freely admit" that I spin my DOHC 4.6 to 7000 rpm (not rpms - revolutions per minutes).

WE were talking about 5.0 engines not mod engines but what the hey.

Correct - and they do NOT spin to 7000 rpm with the stock cams - nor did I say they did. Go back and read again - closer this time.

To add, those guys are making peak power near 5300-5400 rpm, and shifting at ~6000-6200. Remember - I race in this class, not just with a keyboard.

Now tell me that the 5.0 based engines arn't running a girdle at 7000.

Better yet, I'll tell you that they are not running 7000 rpm at all.

Youre hp has either changed or you are in no way running 310 and running 12.02.

Thank you. The most sincere compliment is when someone says "I don't believe you". Would you like references?

I suppose that the track had the same elevation humidity and pressure as the dyno?LOL

See my post above. You might want to be careful laughing when you really have little clue what you're talking about.

Also you probibly did no tuneing at the track right?

Tell me...how do you tune a car without a distributer, without an adjustable FPR, and with no ability to change computer input parameters at the track? Rhetorical question, of course. My car was tuned on the dyno by Jimmy LaRocca using Autologic software. When I go to the track I change tires and run.

I wish I had the time to address youre post more right now but work await's me.

Ya. Have a good time at work.

 

[onefastjackass]

Originally posted by Bob Cosby

Did you chose to ignore the other info I provided?

What part of I have to go to work did you not understand?? MAybee III shoould HAAAVE SAAAID ITTT MOOORE SLOOWWLLLYYY SO YOUUU WOULDDD UNDERSTANDDDD.IIII HADDD TOOO GO TOOO WORKKKKK!!!

"Once again read the rules for factory stock and see where youre assumptions are lacking.One assumption is that they are 3300 pound cars and that they are using cast iron stock heads.They arn't!!"
Once again you are wrong cast iron heads that are made by frpp are not stock heads(they never came on the cars that are running them) they may be allowed by the rules but that doesn't make them stock!!

By the way SAE is a correction factor no more no less.The car can put out more or less based upon pressure and relative humidity.

No chassis dyno is the same I can take the same car and dyno it on two different dynos in the same town an hour apart and get two different #s so to pretend that this is a absolute # is incorrect.

Third, those numbers were obtained with a 31 spline traction lok differential vice the Detroit locker that was in the car when I made that pass. The locker is easily twice the weight of the traction lok - and it spins. You think I made more or less power with it?

Incorrect: The difference between a locker and a TL has very little to do with it.You gain or lose more power with a different backlash or a change in gear oil then the little bit of difference in wieght.

That's like me bolting on a set of frpp scj heads on my big block ford in a truck and saying that it has stock heads.What a laugh.

Ok ford made scj cast iron heads.Would a correct statment be My truck engine is stock.If it was a 460 with cast iron scj heads since they never came on it??

In my opinion its the same as saying my mustang never came with these heads but because they are made by ford and are cast iron then when I bolt them on I can go around saying I am running a stock car.If someone is bolting different heads on a car that it didn't come with.It is not stock!!!

My post said this.By the way stroked you mentioned factory stock.If you ever looked into the rules or looked at one of the cars they are anything but stock.

So you consider a mustang that can wiegh 300 lbs less then the factory made them at and has heads that never came on that car stock??

Correct - and they do NOT spin to 7000 rpm with the stock cams - nor did I say they did. Go back and read again - closer this time.

To add, those guys are making peak power near 5300-5400 rpm, and shifting at ~6000-6200. Remember - I race in this class, not just with a keyboard.
Better tell Mike Washington and tim duncan that!They freely admit to spinning there cars to more then 6200 rpm.

 

[onefastjackass]

Also bBOB the laws of physics will change for no man so I was giving you an out by trying to let you find some reason why youre car could have had more power on a given day then another.Which sometimes happens.

But if you think the laws of physics will change just because of you or some other racers want them to then continue to delude youreself.

Youre car was either making more power due to humidity etc or you did not run the number.Youre choice!!!

 

[Bob Cosby]

Wow. You get defensive when you're wrong but don't wish to admit it. Ok. I'll continue to play.

What part of I have to go to work did you not understand?? MAybee III shoould HAAAVE SAAAID ITTT MOOORE SLOOWWLLLYYY SO YOUUU WOULDDD UNDERSTANDDDD.IIII HADDD TOOO GO TOOO WORKKKKK!!!

I'm sorry....you just picked a few certain items that you thought you could make valid points on. My bust.

Once again you are wrong cast iron heads that are made by frpp are not stock heads(they never came on the cars that are running them) they may be allowed by the rules but that doesn't make them stock!!

Speaking of dense....buddy... I never said they were stock. I said they were iron. You said they did not use iron. I showed you the rules and proved you wrong. Now you are harping on "stock" or "not stock". Nobody is argueing this but you. They are production GT40 heads (93/94/95 OEM Cobra heads or GT40P's from 5.0 Explorers), usually with non-stock valves.

Again...perhaps I should type s l o w e r ? The issue here is that they were iron - not aluminum.

By the way SAE is a correction factor no more no less.The car can put out more or less based upon pressure and relative humidity.

Translation: I do not know what I'm talking about, but I'm trying to make it sound good.

SAE corrects HP to 77F, 29.23 in/hg, and 0% humidity - or about 1800' above sea level. It is the standard that most shops and racers use when comparing HP. The reason for a correction factor (regardless of what it is) is so that folks can compare HP from very different weather conditions and elevations and get them somewhat close.

STD, or standard, corrects HP to 59F, 29.92 in/hg, and 0% humidity - or a standard atmosphere at sea level. The reasons are the same as above.

BTW...you forgot temperature - which has the largest effect of the 3 parameters.

No chassis dyno is the same I can take the same car and dyno it on two different dynos in the same town an hour apart and get two different #s so to pretend that this is a absolute # is incorrect.

I agree that none are the same, and also that the numbers aren't absolute. However, this is somewhere else that you don't want to go.

My car dyno'd ~13 RWHP less on LaRocca's dyno than it did on the one I referenced above. It dyno'd about 5 RWHP less on Jake LaMotta's portable dyno (my car and the dyno numbers were in 5.0 Mag in 2001) than it did on the one referenced above, and about 8 RWHP more than on LaRocca's.

Taking an average of those 3, you would get something around 307 RWHP. Does that help or hurt your case?

Incorrect: The difference between a locker and a TL has very little to do with it.You gain or lose more power with a different backlash or a change in gear oil then the little bit of difference in wieght.

I see. So increasing the rotating weight of the driveline does not affect HP? Wow - I'll let my racing buddy's know this....amazing how we spend money on aluminum driveshafts, aluminum spools, aluminum flywheels, lightweight rods, etc, when that really doesn't make much difference. Why don't you go out and put a 50 lb driveshaft on your car and see how it likes it? Got physics?

I use the same gear oil for each - Redline Synthetic. Backlash is typically set at ~6 thousandths - regardless of the differential.

Ok ford made scj cast iron heads.Would a correct statment be My truck engine is stock.If it was a 460 with cast iron scj heads since they never came on it??

Where are you getting all these references to "stock"? I'm not argueing ANYTHING about "stock" this or "stock" that. Who cares? What I'm correcting you on is several points. I'd type them slower, but I don't think it would help. However, I'm specifically talking about...

1) F/S requires iron heads - either stock E7's or GT40's. We cannot use aluminum as you originally stated.

2) F/S 5.0 racers do not spin their engines to anywhere near 7000 rpm - nor do they have (or need) girdles.

3) It does NOT take 360 RWHP to run 12.20 @ 3300 lbs. I used examples for myself and several other racers.

Those were the three main points I was trying to make. You have then gone off on this "stock" tirade, argueing with............who knows. Let me put the issue to rest - or at least attempt to. The GT40 heads, or E7 heads, used by the top F/S cars are not totally stock. They have VERY good (very expensive) valve jobs and somewhat larger valves (1.85/1.55 max, per the rules). They are unported. They are iron. Is that not clear?

In my opinion its the same as saying my mustang never came with these heads but because they are made by ford and are cast iron then when I bolt them on I can go around saying I am running a stock car.If someone is bolting different heads on a car that it didn't come with.It is not stock!!!

Correct, it is not stock.

1) I never said it was. If I did - quote me.
2) Look up one response.

My post said this.

BS. Your post(s) said that they weren't using cast iron heads. They are.
Your post(s) said that it takes 360 RWHP to go 12.20 in a 3300 lb car. It does not.
Your post(s) said that these cars need to turn 7000 rpm, use a girdle, and have aluminum heads to go quicker than 12.20. That is incorrect on all 3 counts.

By the way stroked you mentioned factory stock.If you ever looked into the rules or looked at one of the cars they are anything but stock.

Does this mean that you "finally" looked at the rules and have decided that F/S cars don't have aluminum heads?

BTW, not only have I "looked" at the rules - I've raced by them. I've competed in a great many NMRA F/S races, won 3 times (Georgia, Columbus, and WFC 01), and briefly held the National ET and MPH records. I've competed with both a DOHC 4.6 and a 5.0. Please, Mr TR man, continue to lecture on what is and what is not allowed in F/S. I'm enjoying it greatly.

So you consider a mustang that can wiegh 300 lbs less then the factory made them at and has heads that never came on that car stock??

Stupid statement.

BTW..."Factory Stock" is a name - and only a name, much like NHRA "Stock", "Super Stock", IHRA "Pure Stock", and many other such designations. It is a limited heads-up class. It does not mean that the cars must be "stock as delivered from the factory".

Better tell Mike Washington and tim duncan that!They freely admit to spinning there cars to more then 6200 rpm.

I'm good friends with both them, and have raced with both of them for 3 years. Perhaps you would like to invite them to join us? I'm game.

Also bBOB the laws of physics will change for no man so I was giving you an out by trying to let you find some reason why youre car could have had more power on a given day then another.Which sometimes happens.

Thank you for your consideration, but I don't need an "out".

Let me ask you this...you seem to know Tim Duncan. Tell me, how much HP does his car put to the ground? What does his car run with that HP?

Tell you what...I'll answer. Tim's car puts down approximately 300 RWHP. His raceweight is a verified 3300 lbs. He consistently runs in the 12.2x range, and has gone as deep as 12.0's.

How is that possible? You said it takes 360 RWHP? Perhaps the air was just overly exceptional? In Bradenton? Perhaps the "laws of physics" don't apply to Tim, either?

BTW...there are plenty of other makes of cars that have run similar numbers - it is hardly limited to Mustangs.

But if you think the laws of physics will change just because of you or some other racers want them to then continue to delude youreself.

Look up. Also, I'm sorry that it takes you so much HP to go 12.2. It must really suck.

Youre car was either making more power due to humidity etc or you did not run the number.Youre choice!!!

I'll take what's behind curtain C, Monty.

As the curtain retracts, we see that "C" contains "you don't know what you are talking about".

Good choice.

Why don't you go ask Tim Duncan - you do know him, remember? He is very familier with my car, and even more familier with his. While you're at it, call Mike Washington and ask him. Send me a PM and I'll send you his cell phone number.

Have a nice day...I hope work wasn't too strenuous.