beginning to hate E85!

[novaderrik]

i've never seen a gas station close for even a day- let alone a whole week- when they started selling E85 or biodiesel.
they just let the existing tanks get empty- usually they get rid of the mid grade 89 octane around here- and fill it up with the new stuff.

 

[MrMNTTA]

I should have excluded E85 from the slamming, they started that years ago.

But let's see what they say about all the other options that are inevitably going to put a hurt on their industry.

Just talked to my bud at the local Phillips 66 where I get my 110 leaded, he said it would take over a week to install E85 and Biodiesel tanks / pumps and that the cost of adding it is not worth it yet to them.

It's going to be a struggle with the stations themselves, I don't blame them for not wanting to shut down the whole station for a week.

If it entails putting in new underground tanks at his particular gas station, I can't say I blame him. But isn't the margin on fuel at gas stations minimal at best anyway? Like 2 to 5 cents per gallon? That makes for a long payback no matter what you do. Even if you just add additional pumps for gasoline, same difference.

 

[bsdlinux]

Dave,

Settle down dude. Anyone with any sense knows that E-85 is not really a long term solution to replace good ol gasoline.
BTW most of the new Ethanol plants have been stopped from being built or scraped all together. Ethanol is nothing new just people's awareness of it.

I seriously doubt we will have a food shortage because of it. We export a crap load of food as well as refined gas across seas when we could use both of them here

Its no different that people saying that the new diesels are somehow the future when only 7 gallons or so of diesel can be refined out of a barrel of oil, we get almost 3 times more gasoline out of a barrel of oil than that. These amounts will not change. So flood the market with diesel cars and make the price of diesel go up which in turn makes all "Truck" delivered goods go up

However I must say E-85 has replaced my choice for fuel in my Turbobuicks. There is no way in hell I'm going back to pump gas. :biggrin:

Buy a Prius and keep the TR for the weekend keeping it full or corn squeezings...LOL

 

[XxDarkSidexX]

the answer is a prius; i got 04' 75,000 miles on mine and have been in love with 50MPG!

check out this little plan I have for the future; Cal Car or Air Car, AFS Trinity.
it will be cheap as it grow in popularity (like china parts) but im thinking of doing this as a graduation
present for myself in a year or so. I like my gn though, first real hybrid (thanks razor).

Cal Car is a big player too! My favorite #1 choice....:biggrin:
YouTube - 100MPG Car ! 1c per mile 1000Miles per tank of gas!

Air Car; 8 min but gets really interest 6min in, cool technology. Excelent gear driving tech!
YouTube - The Air Car

150 SUV whats next? AFS Trinity Imgine your tow suv or truck getting this much mpg!
YouTube - suv 150 mpg + AWESOME!!!
CNN on AFS Trinity Suv
YouTube - 150 mpg + suv cnn FANTASTIC

I just admitted to owning a prius Hope this adds to the information in this thread
DS

 

[GNJimC]

Misinformation

99% of this thread is misinformation from both sides.

The best was the Brazilian comment. Too funny.

Anyways, Why are/will food prices higher? Not ethanol, however we are using more corn for ethanol. 3.2 Bil Bu according to the USDA, compared to 1.6 Billion in 2005. Yep almost double however we will use 6 Billion bushels of the 2007 corn crop for animal feed compared to 6.1 billion in 2005. Exports will amount to 2.475 billion compared to 2.134 in 2005.

Now with the high price of corn why are we exporting more? Cheap US$. Also the corn price has rallied along with every other commodity. China has a huge appetite for protein (soybeans) and has not imported corn, but using more of thier own themselves, feeding people and livestock. Raw commodities have increased to China as well (oil!!!) What do you think could happen after the olympics? The third component is the index funds and commodity hedge funds. These funds are bullish and buy by nature and this has forced prices higher. Many of these funds get around CFTC trading limit rules and have sizeable positions. Last numder was 83% of the soybeans futures contracts were held by the speculators.

All of this has driven up the price of fertilizer and inputs for grain producers. The profit margin now is bigger than in 2005 but there is more risk. As far as price recieved to producer, example in wheat, it takes 1 bushel of wheat to produce 70 loaves of bread. The wheat price is about $7.00 higher than it was in 05 so that would be a 10 cent per loaf rise in bread. Will you still buy it? Yes. Transportation costs eat up most of the increase.

Also to the idea of raising gas to $6 or $7 per gallon? Think food prices are high now? Do that and see how high they are. How would the producers get the crop in/out to the processor and then the processor to you? Also we would not import sugar from brazil, but we would import ethanol. Right now there is a 250 mil gallon cap on brazilian imports. Not worth the hassel for many firms. If we lift the cap we could bring thier ethanol in. It would NOT replace oil, but help in the 10-20% blend.

One more thing. We have 36 Million acres idled in what is called CRP. We pay landowners to NOT grow anything on this land. Yes it is NOT the best land but it did grow somthing at one point and most of it can sustain a crop. Put this land back into production. It makes no sense to have a bio-fuels policy that encourages more grain production at the same time we PAY people not to raise anything.

Anyways, that is all I know about the supply and demand of grain.

More importantly, the white T in the post above, what size tires are those? 215's or 235's? Nice Car!

 

[MrMNTTA]

99% of this thread is misinformation from both sides.

The best was the Brazilian comment. Too funny.

Anyways, Why are/will food prices higher? Not ethanol, however we are using more corn for ethanol. 3.2 Bil Bu according to the USDA, compared to 1.6 Billion in 2005. Yep almost double however we will use 6 Billion bushels of the 2007 corn crop for animal feed compared to 6.1 billion in 2005. Exports will amount to 2.475 billion compared to 2.134 in 2005.

Now with the high price of corn why are we exporting more? Cheap US$. Also the corn price has rallied along with every other commodity. China has a huge appetite for protein (soybeans) and has not imported corn, but using more of thier own themselves, feeding people and livestock. Raw commodities have increased to China as well (oil!!!) What do you think could happen after the olympics? The third component is the index funds and commodity hedge funds. These funds are bullish and buy by nature and this has forced prices higher. Many of these funds get around CFTC trading limit rules and have sizeable positions. Last numder was 83% of the soybeans futures contracts were held by the speculators.

All of this has driven up the price of fertilizer and inputs for grain producers. The profit margin now is bigger than in 2005 but there is more risk. As far as price recieved to producer, example in wheat, it takes 1 bushel of wheat to produce 70 loaves of bread. The wheat price is about $7.00 higher than it was in 05 so that would be a 10 cent per loaf rise in bread. Will you still buy it? Yes. Transportation costs eat up most of the increase.

Also to the idea of raising gas to $6 or $7 per gallon? Think food prices are high now? Do that and see how high they are. How would the producers get the crop in/out to the processor and then the processor to you? Also we would not import sugar from brazil, but we would import ethanol. Right now there is a 250 mil gallon cap on brazilian imports. Not worth the hassel for many firms. If we lift the cap we could bring thier ethanol in. It would NOT replace oil, but help in the 10-20% blend.

One more thing. We have 36 Million acres idled in what is called CRP. We pay landowners to NOT grow anything on this land. Yes it is NOT the best land but it did grow somthing at one point and most of it can sustain a crop. Put this land back into production. It makes no sense to have a bio-fuels policy that encourages more grain production at the same time we PAY people not to raise anything.

Anyways, that is all I know about the supply and demand of grain.

More importantly, the white T in the post above, what size tires are those? 215's or 235's? Nice Car!

99% of the negative press is misinformation too. It sounds like your explanation of why corn prices are higher is better than my explanation, but I think we'll both agree that the worldwide wheat crop last year was very poor, which definitely is a contributor to higher grain prices in general. It sounds like you're one of the few to know and realize we actually exported more corn last year than in years past even with the increase of ethanol production.

Another thing people don't realize is that they think once corn is used and processed to produce ethanol, that's it's completely gone. That too is just total ignorance. One third of each bushel of corn used for ethanol production comes back to the feed market as a high protein product called DDGS(Distiller's Dried Grains & Solubles). I'd be willing to bet that Mr. GN Jones knows that too. :wink:

The bottom line is the US dollar is weak(as you said), oil is high, and it's driving damn near everything through the roof.

 

[TurboDave]

And now, 28% of our total corn production is going to ethanol production. How bad does it have to get before somebody realizes we're "doing it wrong"?

 

[GNJimC]

And now, 28% of our total corn production is going to ethanol production. How bad does it have to get before somebody realizes we're "doing it wrong"?

Call/Write to your congressman/woman and tell them to:
1. Remove more farm-land from the CRP program.
2. Remove the "hedger" classification from the large index traders.

I dont expect you to understand what both of those mean, (not too many people do) BUT the 1st will bring more farm ground into production. (we wont PAY someone NOT to raise a crop!) The second, will limit the amount of contracts that the large index funds can have in commodities. THIS is one reason why prices of ALL commodities have gone higher. Grain/oil/gold etc etc.

The third thing would be to allow Brazilan ethanol into the country (more than 250 MG/year.

The fourth is dont drive.

Also from a farmers standpoint, I hope you were not one of those complaining about the large subsidies that kept farmers afloat whan cash corn was $1.60. (now $5.50) The subsidies got you back to about $2.00 ish and let farmers pay thier bills (and buy new equipment etc, which keeps several UAW workers employed) The challenge now is all of the input prices have gone up mainly due to the cheap $$ and demand for the inputs. Again farmers are making some more $$ but from the market, not subsidies. (the ones left should be removed unless prices go lower). When farmers make $$ they spend it on multi-million $$ equipment made in the USA.

 

[TurboDave]

Call/Write to your congressman/woman and tell them to:
1. Remove more farm-land from the CRP program.
2. Remove the "hedger" classification from the large index traders.

I dont expect you to understand what both of those mean, (not too many people do) BUT the 1st will bring more farm ground into production. (we wont PAY someone NOT to raise a crop!) The second, will limit the amount of contracts that the large index funds can have in commodities. THIS is one reason why prices of ALL commodities have gone higher. Grain/oil/gold etc etc.

The third thing would be to allow Brazilan ethanol into the country (more than 250 MG/year.

The fourth is dont drive.

Also from a farmers standpoint, I hope you were not one of those complaining about the large subsidies that kept farmers afloat whan cash corn was $1.60. (now $5.50) The subsidies got you back to about $2.00 ish and let farmers pay thier bills (and buy new equipment etc, which keeps several UAW workers employed) The challenge now is all of the input prices have gone up mainly due to the cheap $$ and demand for the inputs. Again farmers are making some more $$ but from the market, not subsidies. (the ones left should be removed unless prices go lower). When farmers make $$ they spend it on multi-million $$ equipment made in the USA.

I understant a little. :wink: I was born and raised on a WI dairy farm.

 

[bsdlinux]

I believe this Thread belongs in the Political Views forum. Really not much info here in regards to helping the TR community understand how to run the fuel in their cars. Good Grief

 

[JDEstill]

just an FYI, the word I hear from some of the oil refineries I work with is that the big money right now is not in gasoline, it's in diesel. Ethanol seems to be part of that picture, not exactly sure how, I think it has to do with less total gals of gasoline needed due to the extra gals of ethanol being blended in. Whatever the case, everyone wants to make more diesel. Diesel, diesel, diesel! They don't want to make gasoline, they want to make diesel! Dammit, give me more diesel! That's been going on for a few years now, when we ask them what specs they want to run they always come back with running the gasoline products light and shifting the heavier end (which would have been gasoline 10 years ago) down into the diesel product. Diesel prices are high, and they are trying to crank out as much as they can. Of course they are trying to get as much of all their products out there, they guys I deal with are running their plants balls to the wall, but if they can shift some gasoline over to diesel, they'll do it. Looking at diesel prices, I can't blame them for it either.

John

 

[jsta6]

just an FYI, the word I hear from some of the oil refineries I work with is that the big money right now is not in gasoline, it's in diesel. Ethanol seems to be part of that picture, not exactly sure how, I think it has to do with less total gals of gasoline needed due to the extra gals of ethanol being blended in. Whatever the case, everyone wants to make more diesel. Diesel, diesel, diesel! They don't want to make gasoline, they want to make diesel! Dammit, give me more diesel! That's been going on for a few years now, when we ask them what specs they want to run they always come back with running the gasoline products light and shifting the heavier end (which would have been gasoline 10 years ago) down into the diesel product. Diesel prices are high, and they are trying to crank out as much as they can. Of course they are trying to get as much of all their products out there, they guys I deal with are running their plants balls to the wall, but if they can shift some gasoline over to diesel, they'll do it. Looking at diesel prices, I can't blame them for it either.

John

# Story Highlights
# "Clean diesel" cars getting more popular
# Analysts expect diesel sales to grow 300 percent over 10 years
# Diesel cars get better gas mileage, have lower emissions

Diesels aren't dirty anymore - CNN.com


Hot cars at Detroit Auto Show
Hot cars at Detroit Auto Show - CNN.com

 

[jsta6]

The Clean Energy Scam
Ethanol increases global warming, destroys forests and inflates food prices. So why are we subsidizing it?

The Clean Energy Scam - TIME

 

[bsdlinux]

Well thats all and good HOWEVER.. only about 7 gallons of diesel are produced from a barrel of oil verses 19 of gasoline. That ratio doesn't change. So great ......more diesel cars on the road equal even higer disel prices which is just great news for the trucking industry and anything that is shipped by them...mmm more inflation

yes Diesel is ran with ethanol or methanol mixes all the time in the diesel cars BMW, Volskwagen, etc in race course over in europe. works well and helps with the octane and clean burning characteristics.


Again whats all of this have to do in regards to running E-85 in a TR or TTA

Time to move the thread ALPHA :biggrin:

 

[MrMNTTA]

The Clean Energy Scam
Ethanol increases global warming, destroys forests and inflates food prices. So why are we subsidizing it?

The Clean Energy Scam - TIME

Agreed Linux, the thread needs to be moved.

This negative press is just flat out stupid.

Here's some FACTS:
1. We exported more corn in 2007 than in years past.
2. We produced more ethanol than ever in 2007.
3. We fed more corn to livestock in 2007 than ever, which doesn't include the feed that is fed to livestock that is produced from the corn to ethanol process.
4. We had a huge run-over of corn as ever in 2007.
5. The wheat crop in Australia (and other countries) was horrible in 2007 & 2006.
6. China & India are demanding more commodities. Food and oil.
7. The population in the world is growing.

The world population is growing, of course more land is going to be cleared to produce food worldwide.

Look what the Europeans did in Malaysia in the past two years by literally burning down rain forest solely for producing an oil producing plant and not even using the biomass as fuel to produce energy. The just started it on fire to get rid of it. That is actually a true tradgedy.

How many people in the world do you know that actually eat #2 yellow field corn?

I wish more people would use their common sense and quit believing everything they read in the media and actually do some reasearch.

I'll gladly spend my tax dollars here at home, while creating many jobs, instead of paying more over time to the Middle East.


Again, let's move this thread to the political forum.

 

[JDEstill]

Well thats all and good HOWEVER.. only about 7 gallons of diesel are produced from a barrel of oil verses 19 of gasoline. That ratio doesn't change.

Don't know where you are getting that from, but it isn't true. Every crude oil is different, and the amount of product you get from each one is different. Some crudes might have 30 gals of gasoline per barrel in them, others might have 3 gals. There is a HUGE HUGE HUGE difference between Saudi Light and Venezuelan Heavy.

John

 

[bsdlinux]

Don't know where you are getting that from, but it isn't true.

My point was about the diesel.........even in a best case scenario you are looking @ 2 barrels of oil to yeild the same amount diesel vs gasoline in 1 barrel of oil.
Plenty of info on th net. They can get a lil more low sulfur diesel out maybe like 10 gallons but its still almost a 2 to 1 in gasoline's favor.

Every crude oil is different, and the amount of product you get from each one is different. Some crudes might have 30 gals of gasoline per barrel in them, others might have 3 gals.

The ratio might be slightly different but there will always be more gas in a barrel of oil than diesel or low sulfur diesel. Chemisty has pretty much been unchanged in this area for years.

From American Petroleum Institute (API) statistics an average barrel (42 gallons) will produce 46% gasoline, 22% diesel, 10% jet fuel, 5.5% heavy fuel oil, and the remaining 16.5% would be everything else including lubricants, asphalt, petrochemical feedstocks, etc.


Generally speaking though, most crudes yield between 10% to 30% diesel and most refineries produce in this range but there can be deviations.

Bottom line is >>>>> they cannot produce more diesel than gas out of a barrel oil. More Diesel cars on road equal higher prices PERIOD

 

[JDEstill]

Saying that there is an average amount of gasoline or diesel in a barrel of crude is like saying there is an average hp for a car engine. Sure, the "average" is 200 hp, but if you go by that average you tend to gloss over the fact that there are 425 hp Vettes and 75 hp Neons. In reality, all those cars are different.

So, if the API wants to say there is an average amount of whatever in a bbl of crude, they can do that, and it is just as valid as saying there is an average hp.

Besides which, those "average" numbers are also a bit misleading, in the fact that not every refinery makes every product. Some refineries don't make jet fuel, and what would have been jet becomes diesel instead. So that quoted average would then be 46% gasoline and 32% diesel.

And like I mentioned before, some of the heavy end of the gasoline can be dropped down and end up in the diesel pool, which changes the ratio further.

And then we have the cracking processes, such as cat crackers, cokers, hydrocrackers, which convert the gas oils to motor fuels (since not too many folks make "fuel oil" any more, and not too many refiners make much in the way of lubes either), and so on...

Not trying to be snotty, I'm just saying that you can't make a blanket statement about there being X amount of gasoline or diesel in a barrel of oil. There isn't an easy generalization, it's more complicated than that.

I will whole heartedly concur that more diesel vehicles on the road will cause the price price of diesel to rise!

John

 

[faster]

Looked through most all the posts here and many points were not addressed that are important.

1. It has been proven by many of our top engineering schools that Alky will give you better mileage than gasoline in vehicles weighing 4000# or more. Don't take my word for it do your homework.

2. Alky does not take 3X the BTU to produce 1 BTU. It actually can be a positive if done correctly.
Again do your homework.

3. We dismanteled the railroads and can no longer move all the corn we produce. I know this because I watch as millions of bushels of corn or soy-beans rot out in the midwest waiting to be moved or dried. My wife is from the northwest corner of Iowa and we go there 2-3 times a year to visit and I see the huge piles of corn bigger than a statium just sitting there because there are not enough railroad cars to get it out. If it is happeneing there it is happening elsewhere.

4. We do not need to use corn or food stuffs for that matter to produce Alky.
there are many substitutes that produce just as much or more alky per bushel but then there would not be a problem producung alky and we could begin weaning ourselves off oil. But we can't let that happen.


Our elected leaders and the media are running this into the ground with all the negative stories. When was the last time you heard our gov't or the media say anything positive about anything.

I don't believe the truth will ever be published for the generaql public.

Mikey

 

[bsdlinux]

Looked through most all the posts here and many points were not addressed that are important.

1. It has been proven by many of our top engineering schools that Alky will give you better mileage than gasoline in vehicles weighing 4000# or more. Don't take my word for it do your homework.

2. Alky does not take 3X the BTU to produce 1 BTU. It actually can be a positive if done correctly.
Again do your homework.

3. We dismanteled the railroads and can no longer move all the corn we produce. I know this because I watch as millions of bushels of corn or soy-beans rot out in the midwest waiting to be moved or dried. My wife is from the northwest corner of Iowa and we go there 2-3 times a year to visit and I see the huge piles of corn bigger than a statium just sitting there because there are not enough railroad cars to get it out. If it is happeneing there it is happening elsewhere.

4. We do not need to use corn or food stuffs for that matter to produce Alky.
there are many substitutes that produce just as much or more alky per bushel but then there would not be a problem producung alky and we could begin weaning ourselves off oil. But we can't let that happen.


Our elected leaders and the media are running this into the ground with all the negative stories. When was the last time you heard our gov't or the media say anything positive about anything.

I don't believe the truth will ever be published for the generaql public.

Mikey

MMM I thought this one died.. Maybe it will die again soon