Big performance upgrades advice

[Macsteve829]

I'll start with my current setup: 87 Grand National 3.8, bored .010 over, rings file-fit
Full forged Eagle rotating assembly, H-beam rods, JE pistons, billet mains (all 4 of them). Full internal balance. 212/212 hydraulic isky camshaft (non-roller)
Ported irons, ported intake to match, stock throttle body slightly ported to match upper plenum
Stock headers, 3.5 downpipe, external 46mm wastegate, Cotton's CPT-60 ball bearing turbo, stock intercooler (I do have a large FMIC, not installed right now). Bailey's 2-step.
255 lph fuel pump, accu pressure regulator, 80# Siemens injectors
Power logger/Scan master 2.2, Razer Alky. 93 octane (or race gas depending on if it's available)
Slightly built trans (2nd gear band upgrades, clutches, billet servo, anchor pin etc)
Dave Husek lockup converter 2800 or 3k stall, can't remeber
Regularly running around 25-27 lbs boost.

The car hauls ass as-is right now, although I have not taken it to the track for official times. GPS app and gadgets of that nature estimate me around high 10's, not sure of the accuracy.

I have an SD chip and I am well versed in dyno and engine tuning, so no need for chip reccomendations here

What I want to do:
E-85 conversion (I will be using a Hellcat fuel pump and correct fuel lines to support). Roller cam setup. Larger turbo. New headers to support the correct turbo (4 bolt or band).

Goals: I'm looking to get around 900whp and run low 10's when all is said and done, with the possibility of high-mid 9's with the proper drivetrain and some other supporting components.
I would like some of you turbo guru's out there to chime in and suggest some high HP turbo models and the type of header pedestal I need to run them.
Some of you E85 guys, what injector size would give me enough headroom to hit my goals?
Engine builders, what is a good roller cam to run with the desired output and what do I need to do to my stock heads to run a roller, or should I just get Champions?

Thanks! -Steve

 

[TType85]

I am not an expert or guru but from what I have been advised when I was asking about upgrades; Bison basically said, v-band header, external wastegate and a Garret G35-1050 turbo is the way to go right now if you are set on replacing the headers and going with a bigger turbo.

For fuel requirements on E85 you might need to go to 160's as 120's would probably be close to tapped out; I would check with Eric (turbotweak) to make sure the 160's or larger will work because I know there is some point where the stock ECM can't control the pulse width on the low end. A ecuGN or Holley might be a worthwhile if you have to go bigger.

If it was me, I would put the FMIC on and see how you like it. The stock intercooler has to be a huge bottle neck on that combo.

 

[Mr.Spool]

I'll start with my current setup: 87 Grand National 3.8, bored .010 over, rings file-fit
Full forged Eagle rotating assembly, H-beam rods, JE pistons, billet mains (all 4 of them). Full internal balance. 212/212 hydraulic isky camshaft (non-roller)
Ported irons, ported intake to match, stock throttle body slightly ported to match upper plenum
Stock headers, 3.5 downpipe, external 46mm wastegate, Cotton's CPT-60 ball bearing turbo, stock intercooler (I do have a large FMIC, not installed right now). Bailey's 2-step.
255 lph fuel pump, accu pressure regulator, 80# Siemens injectors
Power logger/Scan master 2.2, Razer Alky. 93 octane (or race gas depending on if it's available)
Slightly built trans (2nd gear band upgrades, clutches, billet servo, anchor pin etc)
Dave Husek lockup converter 2800 or 3k stall, can't remeber
Regularly running around 25-27 lbs boost.

The car hauls ass as-is right now, although I have not taken it to the track for official times. GPS app and gadgets of that nature estimate me around high 10's, not sure of the accuracy.

I have an SD chip and I am well versed in dyno and engine tuning, so no need for chip reccomendations here

What I want to do:
E-85 conversion (I will be using a Hellcat fuel pump and correct fuel lines to support). Roller cam setup. Larger turbo. New headers to support the correct turbo (4 bolt or band).

Goals: I'm looking to get around 900whp and run low 10's when all is said and done, with the possibility of high-mid 9's with the proper drivetrain and some other supporting components.
I would like some of you turbo guru's out there to chime in and suggest some high HP turbo models and the type of header pedestal I need to run them.
Some of you E85 guys, what injector size would give me enough headroom to hit my goals?
Engine builders, what is a good roller cam to run with the desired output and what do I need to do to my stock heads to run a roller, or should I just get Champions?

Thanks! -Steve

Your goals of low 10s and 900rwhp need to be looked at.
It doesnt take 900rwhp to do that.
Low 10s is much easier.
900rwhp alot harder and you have just about nothing needed to make that kind of power.
And fuel system change and turbo would get you low 10s with what you have now easily.
Turbo should be speced for the power wanted to be made.
A turbo around 80lbs/minute will get you there with some room to grow.
I would recommend a 64bb turbo for 9/10 sec ets.
For 900 rwhp I will say there are many different turbos that will move 90/100 lbs/minute and work on the v6s.
Pte turbonetics comp etc all can make a turbo that move air and have the latest in billet comp wheels and bb cartridges for great spoolup

 

[Mr.Spool]

Again if goals are low 10s maybe a 9 sec pass.
3 bolt turbo and stock headers can get you there.

 

[Mr.Spool]

120lb injector minimum on e85 is what I would like to see.
The stock computer can run bigger but you will need to contact eric and speak to him about that.

 

[Macsteve829]

Again if goals are low 10s maybe a 9 sec pass.
3 bolt turbo and stock headers can get you there.

Would something like this get me there and still be responsive on the street?

Turbo CT43 6767​

This is a Comp Turbo "CT-43 6767 TRIPLE BALL BEARING Series Billet Turbo" for a 1986 or 1987 Buick Grand National, T Type, Turbo T, or GNX 3.8 liter turbo V6. The CT-43 Turbo with CT 67 Billet compressor wheel with a BULLET to distribute the air properly, full billet CNC center section and HE67 light weight 10 blade Turbine wheel. It has a 4" intake and a 3" outlet. This turbo is good for anywhere from 500-950HP. This turbo has a TRIPLE ball bearing configuration (the only Turbo on the market with this technology) and is also equipped with a .82 exhaust housing and a anti-surge compressor housing.

 

[Mr.Spool]

Would something like this get me there and still be responsive on the street?

Turbo CT43 6767​

This is a Comp Turbo "CT-43 6767 TRIPLE BALL BEARING Series Billet Turbo" for a 1986 or 1987 Buick Grand National, T Type, Turbo T, or GNX 3.8 liter turbo V6. The CT-43 Turbo with CT 67 Billet compressor wheel with a BULLET to distribute the air properly, full billet CNC center section and HE67 light weight 10 blade Turbine wheel. It has a 4" intake and a 3" outlet. This turbo is good for anywhere from 500-950HP. This turbo has a TRIPLE ball bearing configuration (the only Turbo on the market with this technology) and is also equipped with a .82 exhaust housing and a anti-surge compressor housing.

With the comp turbos you can definitely go bigger on the compressor and turbine size,basically bigger because they spool very very fast due to 3x bbb and the aero and lightweight design.
Yes that would be a great street turbo that would move enough air to run your goal of low 10s and 9 sec.
You would have to go bigger for 900rwhp if that is the goal.

 

[Mr.Spool]

If you want to see how fast the car is a draggy seems to be within a tenth of the actual times the cars are running at the track.

 

[Mr.Spool]

As far as headers go
Ta race headers in 3 bolt with a 3 bolt turbo and a larger ex housing like an 85 has and can do well over 1000hp.
A 4 bolt 82 can do the same
And a 4 bolt 1.25 can north of 1500hp.
So v band is really not needed.

 

[Mr.Spool]

The build approach to motor will be completed different if the goal is low 10s and 9 sec vs a 900rwhp monster.
The whole car has to be setup and beefed up as well.

 

[Macsteve829]

The build approach to motor will be completed different if the goal is low 10s and 9 sec vs a 900rwhp monster.
The whole car has to be setup and beefed up as well.

To clarify, high 9's is the goal, I just threw out that HP number for no apparent reason =)

 

[GNVYUS 1]

If those are your goals, you're mainly a street car and looking to go V band turbo, G35-900, easy high 9s if the combo can 60ft. But this isn't a bolt on and costs way more all in.

 

[Mr.Spool]

I personally wouldn't choose a 62mm to run 9s.
Yes guys have done it.
But......
A larger compressor moves more air earlier and has more potential to move even more air throughout the rpm range especially when it gets higher.
What Many dont understand is what what happens when you overspeed a turbo.
Or what is required to actual force the turbo to move the air the manufacturer or map says it can do.
Larger turbines, big ar, and ex housings look great but when you put them on turbo buicks they can not always perform the way the can on other platforms.
There are alot of reasons for this
But I can say that a 64mm bb turbo will run 9s ,low 10s and have plenty of room and have great turbo response on pretty much most combos with heads and cam and a decent converter.
Really any 62 64 to 67mm billet bb turbo will run the number the op in the right car with the right driver.
A 62mm can but it will have its tongue out and spool no different than a 64 on a mild motor but the 64 will have more power potential.
The 67 will have more power potential but will not spool as fast as a 64 on most combos.
When I say most combos I'm talking mild cams and heads with spring pressures for most hydraulic cams that are running buick 3.8 motors.

 

[Macsteve829]

I personally wouldn't choose a 62mm to run 9s.
Yes guys have done it.
But......
A larger compressor moves more air earlier and has more potential to move even more air throughout the rpm range especially when it gets higher.
What Many dont understand is what what happens when you overspeed a turbo.
Or what is required to actual force the turbo to move the air the manufacturer or map says it can do.
Larger turbines, big ar, and ex housings look great but when you put them on turbo buicks they can not always perform the way the can on other platforms.
There are alot of reasons for this
But I can say that a 64mm bb turbo will run 9s ,low 10s and have plenty of room and have great turbo response on pretty much most combos with heads and cam and a decent converter.
Really any 62 64 to 67mm billet bb turbo will run the number the op in the right car with the right driver.
A 62mm can but it will have its tongue out and spool no different than a 64 on a mild motor but the 64 will have more power potential.
The 67 will have more power potential but will not spool as fast as a 64 on most combos.
When I say most combos I'm talking mild cams and heads with spring pressures for most hydraulic cams that are running buick 3.8 motors.

That brings me to the other part of my main question- I'm running a 212/212 non-roller with ported irons. What would I need to do to the heads to set them up for roller cam and springs, or am I better off with Champion heads if I go roller? I don't really want to spend 4k though just to get one or 2 tenths. If I can get to the 9s with a non-roller, I'm good. Right now I have my 2 step rev limiter set at 6200 with no valve spring floating issues.

 

[Macsteve829]

This is my current turbo:
Ball bearing
Compressor wheel: 60-1
Compressor inlet: 3.0"
Compressor outlet" 2.0"
Turbine wheel: F1-57
Turbine housing: Grand National 0.63 A/R

 

[rag231]

Do you feel like you have maxed out your current combo? You have a pretty good laundry list of components already. I would probably take it to the track and get some seat time in and see where my baseline is and tweak and tweak and tweak again. A non roller cam can get you into the 9's but I personally know that from running higher spring pressures your chance of wiping out a lobe and damaging a lifter goes up dramatically. As far as I know, the cam situation is still dismal waiting on cores.

 

[Pronto]

That brings me to the other part of my main question- I'm running a 212/212 non-roller with ported irons. What would I need to do to the heads to set them up for roller cam and springs, or am I better off with Champion heads if I go roller? I don't really want to spend 4k though just to get one or 2 tenths. If I can get to the 9s with a non-roller, I'm good. Right now I have my 2 step rev limiter set at 6200 with no valve spring floating issues.

I know someone that ran 10.03 with a 212/212 flat tappet and 64/66 @30 psi.

 

[Mr.Spool]

That brings me to the other part of my main question- I'm running a 212/212 non-roller with ported irons. What would I need to do to the heads to set them up for roller cam and springs, or am I better off with Champion heads if I go roller? I don't really want to spend 4k though just to get one or 2 tenths. If I can get to the 9s with a non-roller, I'm good. Right now I have my 2 step rev limiter set at 6200 with no valve spring floating issues.

once you start applying the boost/cylinder pressure needed to run 9s that will change.
I personally run roller cams with high spring pressures on my cars.
But I have much faster goals
I wouldn't run a flat tappet cam in my motors mainly because my engine builder refused to build it without a roller
Iron heads will easily run 9s and faster.
But on a flat tappet I cannot help you there.
My cams are hydraulic and solid rollers.
The turbo you run wont get you anywhere near the 9s so you will have to upgrade sir

 

[Mr.Spool]

I know someone that ran 10.03 with a 212/212 flat tappet and 64/66 @30 psi.

That's cool.
Maybe he would be willing to pass on the spring info to the op.
What's the weight of the car?
I know a guy that did the same thing but was on a 4 bolt turbo and the did go 9s it wasn't lite either.

 

[Reggie West]

A full weight car needs to make 700 to the wheels to get you a 9.99 time slip. So your 900hp is a little high.

Comps 67/67 or 67/81 which is what I would run in a 4 bolt V band housing is what you need to keep the backpressure out of the stratosphere.

Your camshaft needs to be addressed. A flat tappet wont get you there. Something along the lines of 224/224 or 236/236 mechanical rollter will help you out a lot.

Your heads will make the power but irons require more boost to move the same amount of air aluminum heads will at a lower boost setting. Its airflow pure and simple.

Fuel injectors should be 160s for sure. Get the ECU GN and Eric will hook you up if you are still using chips. Go to a -8 feed and -6 return line from the tank to the motor and use the stock fuel rail, that will supply plenty of fuel. That new 525 lph double pump that just came out will work nicely.