BRF Pressure Test Results

[6SENSE]

All readings taken at 1300-1500 RPM.

(P) 55-60 (min TV) ; 80 (max TV)

(R) 110 (min) ; 155-160 (max) shaking abruptly

(N) 55 (min) ; 75-80 (max)

(OD) 55 (min) ; 80 (max)

(D) 55 (min) ; 75-80 (max)

(2) 135 (min) ; 130 (max)

(1) 135 (min) ; 130 (max)

Wish I had readings prior to valve body kit, when it shifted half way decent. Problem is shifts 1-2, 2-3 flaring. Before kit shifts were firm, just late.
What do you guys think? Should I pull it out, put in the KZF and get the BRF rebuilt? Or does this sound like something that I could take care of?

 

[WE4]

LOW!!!

Pressures are, or appear low. It does appear that by the rise in reverse and L1, L2 , that the boost valves are working. You have either a pump problem and or a leak in VB. But, they all appear low in relation to normal. Also with the needle bobbling ck for cavitation or low fluid condition, or filter clogged or oring damaged.

Good Luck

Bruce
WE4
www.PTSnctb.com

 

[6SENSE]

Thanks Bruce.
Before you replied I was looking at a oil pressure test chart that applies to the 200R4 in a tranny book. Here is what it says:

All tests are at normal operating temp, 1000 RPM, brakes applied, do not take more than 20 seconds to record pressure in any one range, and do not exceed 2 minutes total test time.Normal oil pressures:
(N) 55-75 psi
(Low or D2) 120-160 psi
(D) 55-75 psi
(R) 85-140 psi

I went ahead and tested again with the instructions from the book (with TV cable hooke up this time).
(N) 55+ psi
(Low/D2) 135 psi(needle shaking and sounding a little like a pwr steering pump low on fluid when you turn the wheels.A sound like it was trying to pump but fluid was low or not there).
(D) 55 psi
(R) 110 psi

Other than the shaking needle and sound, the readings, if I didnt know any better, looked good (according to the book). What do you think?
Should I leave the tranny in and maybe bring the car somewhere and have an expert basically redo what I might not have done right with the valve body, maybe another set of gaskets? Or maybe I got some dirt or crap in there?
I guess what I am asking is, do those readings sound like a tranny that requires a rebuild or one that is in good shape but just has something stupid wrong with it that might be able to be fixed.
Thanks for your time guys.(I miss driving my car).

P.S. I think CarX has some tranny service that cleans out the tranny some how. Im not sure if it steam cleans the inside of it or what. Have you heard of this, is it a good service for?

 

[6PacktoGo]

WAIT!

Bruce, don't you think it acts like a damned Trans Go? You know, with all those springs behind the inner TV valve? No pressure rise with TV cable movement. Common problem, and I would not be surprised if JW modeled their kit after the Trans Go. Same bull**** different box maybe?
Alan

 

[6SENSE]

This has been a darn crash course if nothing else. Im going to figure out these trannys one of these days.
Alan, I didnt think of it that way, and have heard the warnings about the TransGo kits. I would like to hear what Bruce thinks also, but it sounds like a good possibility (of course I dont know nothin!).
I had brought up in another post the idea of taking out the springs I had put in with the JW kit and reinstall the originals to see what happens. The 2 holes I had drilled in the spacer plate would remain of course as well as the hole I plugged in the 1-2 accumulator housing. The check balls I would take your opinions, but I would probably leave them the way the kit called for. Im starting to think the problem lies with the springs and how they are making the VB work.
Maybe it is just me, but the readings I got didnt really seem to shout "BAD TRANNY!". Maybe it could be a worthlessly inferior, that I am going to complain about, valve body kit?
Anyway, whatcha think Bruce,Alan,everyone,anyone?
If this sounds right then I should probably try another kit? Someone mentioned Superior, is that from a Tranny shop? What to do? What to get?
Thanks guys. Sorry if this is starting to sound desperate, but you know how long this mystery has been going on. Probably would have been better if readings had been just horrible, then I would know what I would have to do at least... save $!

 

[WE4]

LOL

Yes Alan, that does sound like it could be very possible. I, personally, DO NOT screw with the tv circuit.(there is no need) These geunius's who do this always end up with problems. Put the tv circuit back to stock and see what happens. I still think the pressures are low and my book shows them higher for a brf as a brf has to take more torque than some 307 motor. I would not neccessarily say you need a new trans but I would see why tv pressure is so "slow/or lazy."
Again I say......... "What the hell does JW know about a 2004r?"
Like Alan said, rebox maybe?

Bruce
WE4
www.PTSnctb.com

 

[6PacktoGo]

I started out using the Superior HP kit when it was first released, then I started using the regular Superior kit, and adding some pieces from Sonnax. Now, I'm using nothing but a few Sonnax pieces, and not buying a kit at all. I need to start getting the intermediate boost valve from Bruce.

On the TV valvetrain, here is what I do. I use either the plunger spring from Sonnax (they have a TV valve plunger spring that will hold up a freight car), or one from a Superior kit. I leave the stock spring behind the inner valve, and if anyone has put anything besides THE ORIGINAL SMALL, LIGHT, STOCK SPRING behind the inner TV valve, I throw all the non stock springs in the garbage and curse the inventor of those springs vehemently for an hour.

The only reason to have a stiff spring behind the inner TV valve is either the valve bore is screwed up, or you have garbage floating around in the valvebody. Those stiff springs are a crutch for an idiot too lazy to fix a problem, and that's all those stiff springs are, a problem.

The reason for the super stiff TV plunger spring is I like the TV valve to move when I breathe on the cable. I'm a firm beliver in line pressure rise in a 200 4R or a 700R4. If you do not have instant line pressure rise in response to TV cable movement, you WILL burn something, it isn't a matter of if, it is a matter of when.

Bruce is absolutely correct, those line pressure figures are low, even for a stock unit. A modified unit with a good valvebody kit and a .500" TV boost valve will make over 200 psi at max TV. If I don't get 200+ psi, I find out why. Do I think it might be a rebox? Don't ask my opinion of Trans Go or JW, it could and would get ugly. Another B.S. flame war I don't have time for.

Go get a standard Superior kit, and install their TV plunger spring, return the rest of the TV valve train to stock. Put their line bias spring in, and their PR spring in. Use the check ball locations from the Superior kit. I forgot whether or not you have a .500" TV boost valve. If you do not have one, get one. Get an ATSG service manual for the 200 4R, the $20.00 is worth EVERY penny. If you do not have a torque wrench calibrated in INCH pounds, get one, either borrow or buy it. Everything mentioned can be purchased at any good transmission parts store, or online. If you have trouble getting it, email me.
Alan
idoxlr8@earthlink.net

 

[6SENSE]

Thanks once again guys.
I dont know if I had posted this before but if I didnt I probably should have, here is what the I did to the tranny:

1.Changed 1-2 accumulator spring.
2.Installed 1/4" orifice cup plug in designated hole in 1-2 accumulator housing.
3.Changed 3-4 accumulator spring.
4.Changed throttle valve spring between throttle valve plunger and throttle valve.
5.Changed line bias valve spring.
6.Says to remove TV modulator upshift valve spring.Mine was already removed.NOTICED THAT THERE WAS NO VALVE BORE PLUG IN FRONT OF THE UPSHIFT VALVE, is this a problem?
7.(for GN/Ttypes only)said to change 2-3 throttle valve spring.(Also said that if new spring didnt fit valve,to go with original.New one seemed to fit fine).
8.Drilled three 1/8" holes in seperator plate.
9.Installed 6 checkballs in case, leaving out 4th accumulator and TV exhaust.
10.Installed 3 checkballs in VB.Said to remove middle one if you have a 9" convertor, so I left it in.(I later left it out when I was redoing setup.Someone in an earlier post had said that I could leave it out).

This sound right to you guys? Anything that stands out?
The filter that came with the kit had surface rust on the bottom of it, I just cleaned it off.Is this common, or should I worry about rust in the inside of it?
Which spring(s) relate to the TV circuit that Bruce is talking about?
Is the .500" TV boost valve stock? I dont recall doing anything to it.Is this the throttle valve plunger? Not sure which one this is.
Also, dont recall changing small spring on inner TV valve that you mentioned, unless it is one of the ones listed above.
What ever parts you recommend is what I will go with.Still not sure where to get them from, so I probably will have to email you Alan.If I wind up rebuilding this thing anyway I will be able to reuse these new parts if I get them,right? It wont wind up being a waste?Thanks.

 

[WE4]

Originally posted by 6SENSE
.
6.Says to remove TV modulator upshift valve spring.Mine was already removed.NOTICED THAT THERE WAS NO VALVE BORE PLUG IN FRONT OF THE UPSHIFT VALVE, is this a problem?
This sound right to you guys? Anything that stands out?

What? No way. Should have plug with roll pin retainer on mtv up valve. And yes BRFs , it (the spring) wasnt there to begin with.
But This plug thing would worry me. Make sure you got correct bore and if you do you have found your problem.

Bruce
We4
www.PTSnctb.com

 

[6PacktoGo]

Before you do anything else, to eliminate as many chances for mistakes and confusion as possible, go to a transmission parts store and get an ATSG manual for the 200 4R, PLEASE. There is a lot to get confused, and valve body kit instructions are not always a good source of information. Easily more confusing than a manual.
Alan

 

[6SENSE]

I hear what youre saying Alan, I will try to get that manual.Dont know of any tranny parts stores though.
Little info I have is from the kit instructions and a Haynes techbook for GM automatic trannys.Both have pictures of break down of the VB.This is how I noticed the bore plug missing.Info says it is a (12.50mm[.500in]) valve bore plug.I wish the info told what the different pieces in the VB did.Then maybe I could trace the problem better.
Bruce what did you mean when you said "make sure you got correct bore"?
Thanks,Justin.

P.S.Was looking at notes that I had taken down.Looks like that missing bore plug might be for the line bias valve not the MTV upshift valve.Its one of the two.The retaining pin was there,just no bore plug behind it.Which ones worse?
Would this cause a pressure problem without that plug between the valve and pin?
Alan,Does that manual tell a little about the functions of these various valves,etc.?

 

[77 cruiser]

Hey Justin if you can`t find an ATSG manual go down to your freindly GM dealer and ask them to borrow a service manual on your car or anything with a 200-4r. The ATSG manual is pretty much a copy the GM one but with a few minor details added. Good luck.

Jim

 

[KEhrhardt]

The ATSG 200-4R manual is available from Summit Racing (http://www.summitracing.com) or Jegs (http://www.jegs.com) for around $25 IIRC. Hope this helps.

Kurt Ehrhardt
aka 'Chvl66'

 

[6SENSE]

Thanks guys. I found a Daaco-Detroit tranny store here that has almost everything. I picked up the manual for $15. They also stock a full line of Superior products so I bought the K-200-4R-V kit (he said the V kit is the new version of the HP).Comes with (4) springs for VB, (1) for 1-2 accumulator, (1) for servo, (1) for PR valve, (1) for fr pump if priming springs arent already doubled up, and a .471 Boost Valve and sleeve.
I am not sure what steps to take now with this tranny. I really want the BRF on my car, but I am tempted to put the Superior kit on this KZF tranny Ive got sitting, and use it.
Any thoughts guys? Im going to read the ATSG manual and see what I can find out in there. It would be nice if I could take the tranny out and take it apart to fix or replace what should be fixed and replaced, and freshen the thing up. I am not afraid to do it, but I know I am inexperienced in the tranny part of the drivetrain. I also know there are some specialty tools that you guys use. If maybe I knew what part of the tranny to focus on I could pull it off.
At least I know where to get parts from now. That place was like a candy store, TCC solenoids, Super Servos, etc, etc. I just dont know what I need to buy!
As always, any feed back is much appreciated, Justin.

 

[WE4]

To save you some dissapointment......DO NOT use the kcf in your car.( If you have a turbo buick.) It will not do what you desire. Trust me.......

Bruce
WE4
www.PTSnctb.com

 

[6SENSE]

Im definately trying my best to get the BRF together, but I thought you said the KZF (from the '86 442 I had) would work fine as long as I change the speedo gear.
Thanks, Justin

 

[WE4]

MY fault.............(hiding)

Me bad......... I wasn't reading correctly as I ran through it.
You are correct
A KZF is fine.
I am sorry. I missed that. Thought it was kcf...Lot on my mind....


Bruce
WE4
www.PTSnctb.com

 

[Butch]

6SENSE, What's the latest on this?

Butch

 

[6SENSE]

Thanks for asking Butch (somebody was actually interested in my "tranny shift-kit saga"!). (Wasnt able to post the last few days with the holidays and all.)

I recieved a couple of valve bore plugs in the mail from Bruce Monday. (If you recall, I had noticed that there was no plug for my line bias valve. All the books I had looked at showed one, you guys verified for me, so I knew that was one obvious problem.

It was Christmas Eve, I had one last shot at giving myself a Christmas present.
I brought the VB inside, put in the line bias plug, replaced the JW parts with Superior and took time to thouroghly clean every part I touched. The holes drilled in the seperator plate and the plug in the 1-2 accumulator from the JW kit, I left alone.
The Superior kit showed a couple other holes to drill in the plate(that I could have done), but one hole that I had already drilled from the JW instructions, Superior didnt show. So I figured just leave it alone for now.
I left the 2-3 throttle valve spring from the JW kit in, I dont know why, I just did, even though I put the stock 3-4 accum. spring back in (?crazy).
I also wound up putting the small TV spring in. I know Alan, you said not to. If this was a rebuilt tranny I wouldnt have done it, but my logic was telling me since this kit according to the box was for correcting 2004R problems (i.e. not rebuilt trannys) maybe the 2 TV springs (big and little) work together. Besides, this was the last time messing with this tranny as far as I was concerned, so it needed every little bit of help it could get.(Plus the sm spring did not seem extremely stiff compared to stock).
I didnt do the Servo spring that came in the kit and the one front pump priming spring that it said to do if they werent already doubled up.
Also, Alan, I couldnt get the Sonnax .500 PR valve to go in, so I just put the .471 from the Superior kit. Do you have to bore the hole out first?
Anyway, did I take long enough? Okay.... I knew from the first block I drove that there was an improvement. I went ahead and got on the pedal and burned in 1st then scratched into 2nd. Id say yes there was an improvement, and no delayed shifts at WOT which was the original problem before the shift kit saga started.
THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP GUYS. Im sure if I can figure out what all these VB springs and the holes in the seperator plate actually do, there might be another couple of ways to configure the setup for more improvement. However, It does feel better than ever now and and was able to drive it on Christmas!

P.S. I dont know if any of the problem actually had anything to do with the JW kit or just the valve bore plug . I guess if Im bored one day I could put the JW stuff back in to see since Im now a "shift kit expert" ,anyone need a kit put in?

 

[77 cruiser]

Sounds like you`re manking progress I`ve always herd though not to mix shift kit parts but sounds like its a lot better. I`d do another press. test to see what you got.

Jim