Build versus Buy

[Ernie GN]

That’s true my truck took me around 7 years

 

[ITSAV6]

I built my engine, going on 12+ years and knock on wood she's been 11.25 and trapped 120+ And I don't have 2 wheelbarrows of cash in it. Somewhere between 2600-2800 in long block not including gaskets.

 

[SpeedRacerX]

That’s true my truck took me around 7 years

Came out great.

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[SCOOBY DOO]

I'm about the same. Around 2500-3000 in the long block. Stay out of KR and the stock junk is very durable.

 

[SpeedRacerX]

What are your goals? Sounds like you have a healthy good running motor & having fun. I wouldn't pull it out & build it, you're saying 2 or 3 phases, It would probly take way too long any way you did it, (yourself or builder), lots of decisions, time & money, It would turn into a long term project by the time you figure trans, rear, & suspension upgrades. It would probly end up a roller in your garage for 5 years...FUNS OVER. & you wouldnt have your motor to drop back in to get back going again. Btw what town are you in? Pm me if you feel, I have goals similar to yours & we can share ideas if you like.

Scooby and others are going to chime in and say that "based on your goals, look at my mod list, you only need this, etc". I get that and I appreciate all of the advice and I am all for achieving the goal for less money.

But once you get past the bolt-ons that test the limitations, it seems you really have to think this through because now one decision affects 4 other things.

The build versus buy topic I posed can be put aside for a minute to reply to your question.

Goal is low 11's all day, nasty street car, go to the track once or twice per year and click off a 10.8 or better and do it as safely and smartly as possible, if possible. I'm not trying to reach this goal with "the 1 greatest pass of its life out of 100 attempts at 30# of boost pushing a TA49 and gaskets to the explosion point."

Getting to that goal sure seems like bolt-ons alone won't do it - bigger turbo, front mount, etc. Need a new stall, this has turbo, heads and other implications. Trans isn't broke so why mess with it at all. Heads seem like huge bang for the buck. Then that leads you to thinking cam, rollers, etc. Then you say, well, if I'm doing all of that, what about some forging or bottom end work while we're in there. And every one of these "decision trees" you go down has ramifications back up at the top on adjacent parts. Now I really understand people's comments about the importance of the "Combo." I'm also probably not the only person here who wishes they did things in less steps. I feel like I keep wasting parts money only to step up again and again.

Am I over thinking this?

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[Steve V]

You can build your own shortblock if you are mechanically inclined and sounds like you are. I have customers all the time that want to particpate in their build. I am a small guy and have very flexible hours so I let them come down and play. It's fun and they learn and know it was still done right. It all depends on your budget and if you want a lot of down time while your orginal is rebuilt. Lots of options.

As far as combo, ported heads, steel cranks are cheap! $440 at Summit, stock rods are ok but they can be had $500 ish for Scat or Eagle. Molnar a little more. Way easier to balance aftermarket rods vs stockers. Nice forged pistons, don't have to break the bank on those either.

Spend your time or hook up with someone who will ...paying attention to the details and it will last a long time with a safe tune. Remember the candle that burns the brightest doesn't burn the longest.

I am in Virginia , feel free to reach out if you need help/guidance/questions contact info in my sig.

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

A stock short block built correctly will take a beating all day...with ZERO KR. You need a GOOD set of heads...that's where the power is. You need a good convertor...one that will launch well...give a correct RPM drop at the shift points...and will couple well on the big end. I can't say enuf how well the 6262 turbo works.

Now this is where tuning comes into play. I use Erics 112 race chip. It's nothing for me to throw an extra 6 degrees of low gear timing at to get it launch and haul it's ass through 1st and 2nd gear. 3rd gear is easy...let the turbo haul your ass down the track. Boost is God. I leave Erics high gear timing on default...and drag the low gear 02's and high 02's to around 780...nice and safe.

Suspension is 90/10's up front and QA1 single adjustables out back...so I can adjust depending on track conditons.

You have to get out and practice...lots of seat time.

 

[Trashman]

Hey X, I hear ya man, dont forget the bigger & faster you go sometimes takes away the fun on the street, you might not even like it after all the changes. You're doing it right & learning at the same time, the main thing I think if you're gonna do it, would be to start off with another motor & save your good running original. I have very similar goals myself & have another car dedicated for the process. If you're interested in checking out my projects & ideas you can get a hold of me anytime.

 

[chris kirk]

My vision for where I'm taking the mods next on my GN includes maximizing bolt-on's, finding any limitations, buying and selling parts I should have bought in the first place, digging into heads & cam and possibly more if I'm going to dig into the motor and on and on. I also know (from this and prior experiences) that this is addicting.

I also keep seeing these complete, done, already built motors available here from time to time and it gets me thinking.

For the money I'm going to dump into the motor on my GN either at one shot or in 2 or 3 more phases, is it worth just yanking my motor, preserving it and dropping in something already done for "likely" the same or less money and time than if I build up my motor?

What do folks think about this?

How much money do you want to spend? How good of a quality build do you want? For example rebuilt stock short block, or TA /stage short block.....

 

[Nigel]

You have a lot of feedback, and varying opinions. Many ways to skin the cat. Really just try to absorb the info and think about the outcomes, and what you will be most satisfied with if (A) the plan works and consider if (B) the plan fails.
If you read the crankshaft post I started, the stock crank seems like the weakest link. Some have had great results, others disaster.

Below is an outline of potential options, not sure what is best for you, plus my info has some holes that you should try to fill in and make sure is accurate, just looking to summarize what is possible. I will be doing the same in a year or so.

Options:
Buy short block - Consensus is unless you know the seller well or buying from a reputable vendor, do not buy a built short block.
Keep running stock long block - Reliable option for your combo, just keep tuning and having fun. You can add/change engine management, turbo, converter to optimize.
Use stock short block add Cam and Heads - Can have very good results, done by many - Odds of failure ?.
Freshen with stock parts, add forged crank and pistons plus machine work, go external balance and you can reuse balancer and flex plate - good idea? Add heads and cam.
Complete build, basic to all out. - 5 to 15 grand plus ?. Talking long block only, including heads.

 

[Mr.Spool]

My vision for where I'm taking the mods next on my GN includes maximizing bolt-on's, finding any limitations, buying and selling parts I should have bought in the first place, digging into heads & cam and possibly more if I'm going to dig into the motor and on and on. I also know (from this and prior experiences) that this is addicting.

I also keep seeing these complete, done, already built motors available here from time to time and it gets me thinking.

For the money I'm going to dump into the motor on my GN either at one shot or in 2 or 3 more phases, is it worth just yanking my motor, preserving it and dropping in something already done for "likely" the same or less money and time than if I build up my motor?

What do folks think about this?

Nothing wrong with either.as long as the build was done right.heads,mild cam on the stock shortblock is easy and cheaper for 10 sec passes it's the rest of the car that costs,trans,converter,rear end upgrades,fuel system,tires etc.want to go cheaper?just put ported heads on the car with better springs on the stock cam and shortblock will make 10sec passes with the right tune and converter

 

[ITSAV6]

Scooby and others are going to chime in and say that "based on your goals, look at my mod list, you only need this, etc". I get that and I appreciate all of the advice and I am all for achieving the goal for less money.

But once you get past the bolt-ons that test the limitations, it seems you really have to think this through because now one decision affects 4 other things.

The build versus buy topic I posed can be put aside for a minute to reply to your question.

Goal is low 11's all day, nasty street car, go to the track once or twice per year and click off a 10.8 or better and do it as safely and smartly as possible, if possible. I'm not trying to reach this goal with "the 1 greatest pass of its life out of 100 attempts at 30# of boost pushing a TA49 and gaskets to the explosion point."

Getting to that goal sure seems like bolt-ons alone won't do it - bigger turbo, front mount, etc. Need a new stall, this has turbo, heads and other implications. Trans isn't broke so why mess with it at all. Heads seem like huge bang for the buck. Then that leads you to thinking cam, rollers, etc. Then you say, well, if I'm doing all of that, what about some forging or bottom end work while we're in there. And every one of these "decision trees" you go down has ramifications back up at the top on adjacent parts. Now I really understand people's comments about the importance of the "Combo." I'm also probably not the only person here who wishes they did things in less steps. I feel like I keep wasting parts money only to step up again and again.

Am I over thinking this?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

I don't have a stock short block, I have center billet caps,main studs, resized stock rods with ARP bolts,TRW forged pistons, plasma moly rings, ported heads, Harland Sharp roller rockers, Comp 206 roller cam, Comp pushrods, Comp bee hive springs. Now be it I got KILLER deals on most of the big ticket stuff as I was buying stuff up for a while. I wanted to run low 11/high 10 and built accordingly. And luckily have a good machinist close by.
I have only had 2 combos on my car. Stock turbo to pan,Reds chips, hotwired pump. I had my current trans/converter setup about a year before I built engine and went to the TE61 and 55# inj with new motor. Ran the stock IC til last year and added the Gen2 Translator a couple of years ago. The Translator and bigger IC made the most seat of the pants. I run 20psi all the time, 93 octane with 2 bottles of VP Octanium in the tank. Same boost at the track/traps 118-120. No knock. 25psi and I should go mid 10's with race gas.

 

[earlbrown]

I've just never torn down or rebuilt a motor in my life although I would really like to accomplish this one day but... I would need guidance and oversight by a pro for the first time I think.

In that case don't take your running car apart. First imagine what you want to build as far as iron heads .vs aftermarket alums....

Then go to your local pull-a-part and find a plain ole POS Regal with a 109 block. If you want to stick with irons, get the long block. If you're going to buy heads, get the short block. (or if you're feeling really adventurous, pull the crank rods and pistons out too)

Once you get home, Have a machine shop measure the exact deck height (or square deck it), hone it clean and round, power wash it, and R&R the cam bearings. Put it on a Harbor Freight engine stand and bag it.

Then start shopping for deals. Once you have a crank, rods, and pistons, you're almost home free. With parts in hand a rotating assembly is easy. There's only one thing to know.... How to do it right.

With the message board, any questions or verification you need are easy with pictures and measurements posted online.


Then go from there.

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

If you're in no hurry...this is what I would do. Get out to the track and learn how to tune...you'll need Powerlogger. The other thing. Figure out how to get the car to launch it's best...and get it to do it consistently. When the new engine is ready...you'll run high 10's without even trying.

While I've been beating on this engine, I've gathered up another std bore block and a .030 over rotating assembly to shove in it as a back up engine.

 

[turbo89]

Scooby and others are going to chime in and say that "based on your goals, look at my mod list, you only need this, etc". I get that and I appreciate all of the advice and I am all for achieving the goal for less money.

But once you get past the bolt-ons that test the limitations, it seems you really have to think this through because now one decision affects 4 other things.

The build versus buy topic I posed can be put aside for a minute to reply to your question.

Goal is low 11's all day, nasty street car, go to the track once or twice per year and click off a 10.8 or better and do it as safely and smartly as possible, if possible. I'm not trying to reach this goal with "the 1 greatest pass of its life out of 100 attempts at 30# of boost pushing a TA49 and gaskets to the explosion point."

Getting to that goal sure seems like bolt-ons alone won't do it - bigger turbo, front mount, etc. Need a new stall, this has turbo, heads and other implications. Trans isn't broke so why mess with it at all. Heads seem like huge bang for the buck. Then that leads you to thinking cam, rollers, etc. Then you say, well, if I'm doing all of that, what about some forging or bottom end work while we're in there. And every one of these "decision trees" you go down has ramifications back up at the top on adjacent parts. Now I really understand people's comments about the importance of the "Combo." I'm also probably not the only person here who wishes they did things in less steps. I feel like I keep wasting parts money only to step up again and again.

Am I over thinking this?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

We ran 11.0 @ 119-120 back since 1992 on just bolt ons ... we beat the snot out of the setup street racing it .. if we had the datalogging stuff we have now .. it would have been a 10.70 car all day. We had stock junk and it ran and ran and ran.

Learn the car first.. Exhaust all the bolt on stuff first .. there is more in learning the car, datalogging, tuning than a bunch of parts will get you.

Simple suggestion .. until your BOLT-ON car is going consistent low 11's DONT DO A THING with the motor

 

[Turbo Keith]

We just got a Power Logger for the car , installed it , and ready to go and play and learn . I have a stock un-opened engine and plan to leave it that way till I out grow the bolt on's . I know power is in the heads but I can't see breaking that seal just yet . I wanna see just what I can get out of what I have till the heads come off . And as the car sits she will still scare the hell out of me so I'm not so sure how " Faster " I wanna go LOL

 

[SpeedRacerX]

We just got a Power Logger for the car , installed it , and ready to go and play and learn . I have a stock un-opened engine and plan to leave it that way till I out grow the bolt on's . I know power is in the heads but I can't see breaking that seal just yet . I wanna see just what I can get out of what I have till the heads come off . And as the car sits she will still scare the hell out of me so I'm not so sure how " Faster " I wanna go LOL

Then you, sir, are not Ricky Bobby.

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[michael evans]

[QUOTE="SpeedRacerX, post: 3793538, member: 46020.................."I also keep seeing these complete, done, already built motors available here from time to time and it gets me thinking?................................/QUOTE]

We have various turbo engines and short blocks in stock, 3.8 and 4.1, some short blocks and some complete, as well as forged rotating assembles and stock builds.

Most of what we do is rebuild customer's engine, and an outright sale is subject to a core charge depending on what parts we furnish.

We have been building turbo V-6 engine since the 90's and I believe no other shop has exceeded our reliability or quantity of our number of engine builds now exceeding 800 units!

I wish you were on the right coast

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

My vision for where I'm taking the mods next on my GN includes maximizing bolt-on's, finding any limitations, buying and selling parts I should have bought in the first place, digging into heads & cam and possibly more if I'm going to dig into the motor and on and on. I also know (from this and prior experiences) that this is addicting.

I also keep seeing these complete, done, already built motors available here from time to time and it gets me thinking.

For the money I'm going to dump into the motor on my GN either at one shot or in 2 or 3 more phases, is it worth just yanking my motor, preserving it and dropping in something already done for "likely" the same or less money and time than if I build up my motor?

What do folks think about this?

Without reading the other 20 responses to this question first.......

If it were me, and I wanted a solid stock configuration balls-out street car, NO WAY WOULD I EVER DO IT FROM SCRATCH !!!!! If I had the cash, I would just buy it. Even if I didn't, I would start a savings for just this. Your going to be putting money into a car if you were building it from scratch anyway. Might as well put that money in a savings for one that is already built. It's definitely less expensive and will save you tons of time. Sometimes years. However this doesn't mean it will be be a turn-key performance purchases. Even at the bare minimum, after the purchase, there will still be a considerable amount of time, effort and a little more money to meet your predetermined goal.

But.....there would be guidelines I would set for myself.

Forget the internet. All of it. Every last F*CKING thing on it! ALL-OF- IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I would only buy from a seller who used and was friendly with the reputable TR shops I was familiar with. Here in the North East, this would include (but not be limited to Cotton's, Bison's, Paul-pacecarta, Richard Clark......).Or it would be even better, if the sale was directly brokered through one of these shops. I would verify that they performed most, if not all of the work. With advise from a TR specialist, I would then asses what part of their combination still needs to be completed, or is outdated, or the left over life expediency. I would leave money in my pocket for these unexpected unforeseeables.

I wouldn't rush it. Even if it took a year or 2. Call the shops and ask around. Get into the crowd and be a player with these guys. They know who is selling. They also know who can't pay their bills. It happens all the time. People drop their cars off for total performance work and then find out they can't pay (or don't want to pay) the 15,000 dollar bill. Sometimes they just want out for the new next-best factory hot-rod.

Then if you find one you like and close the deal..............

Don't drive it to the track the next day! Don't even stab-it on the street!

Take it home and pull every single accessories off that you can. Headers, turbo, down pipe, all the top engine components, intercooler, radiator, fan, all the crap on the inner wheel wells, drop the tank, keep going and going. Lay it all out on blankets or work tables in the garage or all over the driveway. Take the wheels off. EVERYTHING.

Look at everything good. Do an entire spring cleaning. Change all the fluids and gaskets, spark plugs. Clean and paint the shit out of everything. Close up all possible water infiltration areas and use a paint brush and soap-up the entire engine, underside and transmission and rinse it. Put it all back together.

Think I'm crazy?

Nothing will get you more familiar with your new ride than this sort of thing. You will find and fix loose wires, connections, and tighten stuff, change gaskets, replace seized and rusted bolts and other components, and also replace a million other things that you wouldn't have known about if you didn't do this. You will make discoveries that will prevent miss-haps. Obviously your not going to take the engine or transmission apart. You don't have to. That's why you bought from someone you trusted. When you are happy with what you have reviewed, repaired, re-tuned, replaced, rewired, then take it to the track.

From this point forward, you can buy and do all those little things that make you feel warm and fuzzy.

Understandably, doing this may not simply be within many buyers abilities. But trust me. You really can't get anyone to do this sort of thing for you the way you really want it......I know I can't.

And if not...........good luck. You are going to need it.

 

[Phoneguy]

Sometimes you can find a deal on used stuff & it can pay if you have an idea where it comes from. Case in point I have a stroker 109 short block that I will sell in the near future built by RPE. Very low hours on it, but I'm looking to upgrade to a better TA block build.

PM sent on the RPE short block

Thanks
Bryan