Building a better handling turbo Regal.

[UNGN]

Originally posted by Ormand
But there are LOTS of photos showing cars in the "up on three wheels" attitude, and sometimes there is actually air under that inside tire!

And they are all braking into a corner.

I have seen lots of pictures of cars with similar stiff roll stiffness at the rear, carrying a front tire out of a curve.

If someone has a picture of a G-body with a rear tire in the air, It #1 isn't "coming out of a corner" and/or #2 doesn't have an ATR rear sway bar.

 

[motorhead]

Originally posted by GNVAIR
I have to disagree with you on the issue of the ATR rear sway bar. On my car I used it and it was horrible. Made the car steer from the back end.

<snip>

The only thing I can see the big sway bar being good for is for the guys that drive around without their front sway bar. No flame, just my experience with it on my Buick. It might work for a G body with a big block (meaning a lot of weight in the nose). It just didnt work for me.

Wow, Lee! If I find myself agreeing with you again... I am leaving the internet. Nah.

Seriously tho. My Buick came with the ATR bar on it. I took it off ASAP and stuck it on my nofrontswaybarhaving MCSS. Afterall, it has the heavy nose of the two cars.

Now, as for MY Buick:

Front:
Robert Adams 12" Brake Upgrade Kit (B-body Spindles, 1LE discs, & Tubular UCAs).
Stock LCAs - Boxed & DAL'd
36mm F-body Swaybar with MOOG G2 Bushings and Endlinks.
MOOG 5664 Springs w/ 1-Coil Cut. (Now Rated Over 800lb/in)
Monroe Gas Shocks (I know... I am getting some QA1s )

Rear:
9.5" Drum System (S-10 Wheel Cylinders & AL Drums)
South Side Machine LCAs (There when I bought the car)
Bennett Racing UCAs w/ Spherical Rod Ends
MCSS F41 Rear Swaybar
Stock Springs (Looking to upgrade to constant rate)
Monroe Gas Shocks (See Above... )

Wheels & Tires:
17x9.5 - Kuhmo 712 275/40/17 on all 4 corners.

And a 6-pt Roll Bar.

The car is also lightened via a 'glass front bumper, hood, & trunk lid. Among other guttages.

The car is reasonably well balanced but, the weight transfer rate in the rear is a bit high.

Original Question: How does this ride?

Like crap. Especially on I-94 from Detroit.

Your best bet is some KYBs, 1LE bushings, all the FACTORY body bushings, upgraded swaybars (good helper for stock-like springs w/o decreasing ride quality), & all of the G-body braces. 16" wheels and tires for some added bite.

HTH,

 

[tminer]

Mr. T,

Anything special needed to get those tires under the front? What bs/offset? Any rubbing? Are the springs aiding, or would 600+ be enough? I understand about the 12" spindles increasing the track.

Thanks,
Tom

 

[GNVAIR]

Yeah, Mike. Our cars are set up very similarly.
My current suspension consists of:
Front:
GW UCA's
B body spindles with 12" 1LE F body rotors
Del Alum bushings in the LCA's
Moog 5660 springs
Bilstein shocks
Hotchkiss tie rod sleeves
Stock front sway bar with new GM rubber frame mount bushings and Energy Suspension end links
Stock steering box
All new Moog ball joints, tie rods and idler arm

Rear:
Boxed UCA's and LCA's with GM 1LE F body higher durometer bushings in all 8 positions
Moog 5651 rear springs
Bilstein shocks
stock rear sway bar
Air Lift air bags for preload at the track

Wheels:
16x8" GM GTA rims (rear offsets on the front and front offsets on the rear) with GM steel 1/8" wheel spacers behind each wheel for additional offset.
Tires:
Cheap Kumho Ecsta Supra at all 4 corners P245/50R16 front and P255/50R16 rear

It should be noted that I have a lot of positive caster as well as -1° camber in the front end. With this set up I gained a TON of road feel and increased the steering effort which many try to gain by changing steering boxes. IMHO, it is totally unecessary. My steering box has been relashed per Jeff Davidsons article and the pressure regulator in the pump is stock.
I have minimal bump steer compared to stock. I can attribute this to the higher rate front springs (approx 640lbs/in)
As I previously noted, the ATR rear bar was way too much for my car and dramatically increased the rear roll stiffness to the point that it felt like it was binding and not allowing full articulation.
The car feels tremendously more balanced with the stock rear sway bar.
It should also be noted that my car does not have any additional frame or chassis bracing or the additional body mounts as I just havent gotten around to it. Everyone who has rode or drove in the car is totally shocked at how incredible the car handles and stops. I can take on/off ramps at 70mph with no problem now. I have probably a good $1500 into the suspension not including the shocks and wheels/tires. To me it was money that was definitely well spent.

 

[Ormand]

NO, UNGN!! The cars I'm talking about with the inside rear wheel off the pavement are NOT braking into a corner. They are coming OUT of a corner, and they have the rear suspension so stiff that ALL the weight is transferred off of the inside rear wheel. The ATR sway bar could easily do that, since it is about six times as stiff as the OEM bar. There are photos, I'm sure that show the rear wheel lifting on braking, too, but since that doesn't affect drive traction, it doesn't result in a severe handling problem. There were several cars in the old "stock" sedan racing series which would lift the inside rear wheel. It's not uncommon for front wheel drive cars to do it, too, but again, it doesn't affect traction that much, so it doesn't hurt the FWD cars. It's pretty simple, really. Use a GN as an example. There's only about 1600 to 1800 pounds on the rear wheels, or 800 to 900 pounds per wheel. Because the car has a high center of gravity, it transfers a lot weight from inside to outside under hard cornering. If the rear suspension is set up so stiff that it provides most of the roll resistance, it can easily transfer 800 to 900 pounds off that inside wheel. Some of the sedans from the races in the sixties were had higher CGs than the GN, and narrower track, so they could do it more easily. They were also quite front heavy, so the tuners would use stiff rear bars to prevent gross understeer, which would then lead to the traction problem. Just because you haven't seen this, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means that your education/experience is not quite as broad as it might be.

 

[Matt Weiser]

Originally posted by Mr. T

Your best bet is some KYBs, 1LE bushings, all the FACTORY body bushings, upgraded swaybars (good helper for stock-like springs w/o decreasing ride quality), & all of the G-body braces. 16" wheels and tires for some added bite.

I would disagree on the shocks. In my experience, KYBs have a ton of initial compression stiffness. This makes the car feel stiffer, yeah, but also produces a terrible harsh ride. I love my Bilsteins. They're stiff enough without being harsh and at $50 each they're worth every penny over the KYBs.

Also, GNs and T-types already have a quick-ratio steering box from the factory. AFAIK, the only thing to be gained by going with an F-body box is tighter internal stops to keep your tires from rubbing, if that matters to you.

 

[motorhead]

Ha! Lee, I have -2.5* of camber, 3*+ of caster, and 1/8" of total toe. I too, have been lazy on the factory bracing collecting and installing... good mods for sure... even with a roll bar.

Yes, the front wheels/tires rub over bumps, and against the frame and swaybar. There are many mods that I need to do to make them work as intended... some of that includes cutting.

Matt, your right on the shocks... I assumed dude was on a budget.

 

[Brian Mc]

Originally posted by Matt Weiser
I would disagree on the shocks. In my experience, KYBs have a ton of initial compression stiffness. This makes the car feel stiffer, yeah, but also produces a terrible harsh ride. I love my Bilsteins. They're stiff enough without being harsh and at $50 each they're worth every penny over the KYBs.

Also, GNs and T-types already have a quick-ratio steering box from the factory. AFAIK, the only thing to be gained by going with an F-body box is tighter internal stops to keep your tires from rubbing, if that matters to you.

I'm glad I'm not this out of touch. KYB makes other shocks than those crap white ones. Bilsteins are overpriced.

 

[BJM]

I have to second that idea about KYB's being harsh. They really are. You have no idea until you switch to something else. I went with Bilsteins and will never go back. All the same control and more compared to the KYB but with no harshness at all.

 

[darkfa8]

good shocks cost money, the Koni's are ~$90 each. The QA1's are ~$120ea.. the Penske's are much money each

I think a good compromise are the Bilsteins or Tokicos, next step up would be the QA1's or the Konis (though the QA1's are 12-way adjustable whereas the Konis have only 3 adjustments).

 

[ijames]

How about the Edelbrock IAS shocks? Are they as harsh as the KYBs?

 

[BJM]

Before I bought my Bilsteins I asked this board about the IAS shocks but no one had any answers. They were intially marketed towards trucks. They sound like they realy only have a single step from stiff to soft unlike the multiple valved types out there.

 

[Matt Weiser]

Originally posted by ijames
How about the Edelbrock IAS shocks? Are they as harsh as the KYBs?

I considered these too and decided I wasn't willing to spend that much money to find out if they were any good. And if I was going to spend that much on shocks, anyway, I'd go ahead and get Konis or QA1's, which have the benefit of being user-adjustable for stiffness. But again I wasn't willing to spend that much for shocks, and that's why I think Bilsteins are a great compromise!

 

[terryk]

Originally posted by BJM
I have to second that idea about KYB's being harsh. They really are. You have no idea until you switch to something else. I went with Bilsteins and will never go back. All the same control and more compared to the KYB but with no harshness at all.

I have KYB's and Eibachs on my Ciera GT (FWD). They seem fine. No harshness. Interesting. I've never driven a Regal with them though.