Cam Selection

[AKTURBOTA]

Would the only difference between a roller cam kit for a Buick versus a TTA be the length of the pushrods?

 

[postal]

Postal... How heavy were your friends cars?

The fastest of the 3 was an aluminum headed motor with out a/c and was around a tad under 3600# with driver. The last one with the Austemper roller is full weight and optioned out car with Iron heads, a/c, power seats ect.. and it had a heavier driver.

Razor I agree with you 120% about the high dollar turd mobiles. Even Surej's high dollar set up had a hard time matching my et's. Infact if the test was fair I would be the winner. I had only one crack at the track on that set up. His car was tuned by Pete Barton at ANS on a chasis dyno, tweaked out there and on the street and it still took multiple visits to barely beat me 11.14 vs 11.16. My 11.16 was not even tuned one the street I had one crack to address the tuning and that was at the track (and no fancy wide band set up either, just a scanmaster and a T-Plus). Now Surej stuck with it and got his car down into the range where it should have been. Infact once he did finally figure out what his car liked he destroyed my times by almost a full second, and his car was no longer a high dollar turd. The one thing SUrej had even when the ET's weren't good was good mph for a GN. I kept telling Surej that when he finally got his first 10 second slip that it would not be a 10.99, infact his first was around 10.65 and his best wound up being a few clicks less that that. There was just too much MPH there for that car to not go deep into the 10's. Roger Davis's car rolled off the trailer and went 10.70 on its first pass with actualy a less expensive set up, and he went into the 10.2's, back when there weren't hardly any low 10 second GN's at the nationals. That car was no high dollar turd by anybodies standards. The third car is Anish's (Surej's cousin) and it is by far the budget build up of the three. Infact Anish's car would not be considered a high dollar car by any body. That car only made one pass and it went 11.29 @ 19 pounds with 21 degrees timing, pump gas and alky shifting at only 5200 with a roller cam that wants to see about 5800 to 6000 to run right. Will fix a few issue we where having and look for 10.xx on pump gas next spring. Now these three cars all ran relatively stout and low boost. The faster two cars never ran what the could of because at those performance levels you stop turning them up for fear of busting the crank. There is no doubt in my mind that Roger's and Surej's cars would have been able to crack into the 9's. They just did not feel like risking thier motors to prove some thing.

AKTURBOTA:

You asked about feed back on cams. I have seen alot of high dollar turds, I've heard of and talked to a few guys with low dollar screamers. I can say 100% for sure that a roller cam is not needed to go fast. I can also say 100% for sure that my three good friends who have run rollers would all recommend them highly for multiple reasons, with the biggest two being no wiped lobe BS, and none of them had to lean on thier cars to get them to run good. The three cams where a pair of 210/210's and one 210/215. I can also say I have a good reputation of running what I recommend. I have two motors going together and the two roller cams are sitting here. Thier both a little bigger and noisier than 210/215 hydraulic rollers though. Valve springs with 280#'s of seat pressure and 600 plus #'s of open pressure would not work with hydraulic lifters.

Good luck with your project: Jason

 

[89ICBM]

Frank,
How does your "big cam" idle? Who is the mfg? BTW how much of a difference did it make in performance?

Thank,
Mark


Hi Mark,

Sorry it took so long to get back to you, I've been away from the computer for 8 days. The cam idles and drives great, no problems. I have the idle set at 500 rpm's just like stock. I did advance the cam 4° for a better bottom end, it's a 112° cam. The original manufacturer is D. Elgin Racing Cams but this one was done by John Dougherty who used to work for Elgin but now has his own buisness. Well, as far as a comparrison of performance it is hard for me to give a solid answer since I have a lot more done to my motor than just the cam and I've had the cam for over 3 years and have made several other changes. Here's how I look at it; L. Conley used this came when Tweaked set the single turbo world record, he said it gave him 4 10th over the other cams he had tried so, in my view, it was the way I wanted to go.

 

[Razor]

As I ran hyd.rollers on my TTA, I know they are longer. And all there is to do is get a pushrod checker to see what length the rods need to be. Nothing special about that.

Andreas. I guess my word "Special" shoule have been changed to the word "Different".

In other words.. the original 1989 pushrods will need to be replaced :wink:

 

[Razor]

Here's how I look at it; L. Conley used this came when Tweaked set the single turbo world record, he said it gave him 4 10th over the other cams he had tried so, in my view, it was the way I wanted to go.

Hell why didnt you go for the one Gallina runs when he broke into the 7's

So the weight, converter, transmission, gear ratio, heads, exhuast, turbo, are the same as Tweaked? Cuase thats how you choose a cam.

Big difference between runs and idles and drives nice. My 221 cam is a baby.. and you can tell a noticable lope to it.

Dont mean to bust your XXXXX, the thread started asking for cam suggestions on a stock TTA.. not race cam selection on a stage II.. that "MAY" be the slightest streetable. And until I see a dyno sheet or a 1/4 mile slip.. there is no proof of performance. Cuase that would mean every Mustang runs 4's cuase John Force runs 4's :biggrin:

 

[postal]

89ICBM:

Hey! Think outside the box! I run a 276/270 and I love it!

and

I have the idle set at 500 rpm's just like stock.

I think you may be a little confused. I think you're confusing gross duration with .050" duration. A CompCams 218/218 is 218 degrees at .050" and its 268 degrees gross. The cam you listed at 276/270 WOULD NOT idle at 500 rpms if those are the .050" specs. The .050" specs on your cam are probably in the high 2-teens to low 2-twenties if its an aggressive lobe cam like the Comps. If its not an aggressive ramp cam then the .050" specs are probably in the mid 2-teens or lower. Its really hard to tell how big a cam is by looking at gross duration.

Stock cams usually have ALOT of gross duration but the .050" specs are rather whimpy. This makes for nice and easy opening and closing of the valves and doesn't require much valve spring. That combonation makes for a valve train that will live for 100,000 plus miles no problem. Do to the huge variance in the low lift open/close ramps most people look at and quote the duration at .050" when refering to the size of the cam. The gross duration number still pops up alot of times in the naming of the cam however. The CompCams are a prime example, like the 218/218:

duration at .050" lift: 218
gross duration : 268

And the cam grind number is.... 268H (not 218, the 268 for the gross duration, and the H for hydraulic)

HTH: Jason

 

[AKTURBOTA]

I have been talking with John Pearcy about purchasing a roller cam kit and he recommends a custom grind roller cam by Competition Cams. At this point I have the following stats:

Adv 259°, lobe lift is .317

210°/210° duration at .050 lift

John has this to say about the cam.

"It's a Comp cam custom grind, it's not a off the shelf cam.

Are you familiar with Dan of DLS engines? If not, he was the Engine Builder for Precision Turbo & Engine back when they built Engines. Dan has gone on his own to open DLS. Dan optimizes cam grinds to his specs to better work with aftermarket Turbos, his stuff just works better than off the shelf grinds.

The cam I'm telling you about was done by another TT/A customer of mine, he was so happy with the cam that I decided to also do the same cam to my own car. "

John Pearcy
D.B.A. Johns Performance & Products
360-658-9966
www.johnsperformance.com
"This Place is a real DRAG!"

It seems to me that a 210° cam seems to be sort of a middle of the road type of cam and if John Pearcy thinks it is good enough to run in his TTA, it must be a good choice.

 

[Jicaju]

I'd take my advice from Razor any day before I took it from John. Been there done that.

 

[postal]

The DLS 210/210 is the cam I was talking about above. Its the roller that Roger Davis and Surej ran. This is a great cam from all angles. Its a comp custom roller with 210 deg at .050", ground on 110 deg lobe separation angle, its ground "straight up" and Dan recommends it to be installed that way. Basically you don't advance or retard it, which means the cam should be installed with the intake lobe center at 110 degrees. You can get this in billet or you can custom order it in the austemper version.

Dan has gone on his own to open DLS. Dan optimizes cam grinds to his specs to better work with aftermarket Turbos, his stuff just works better than off the shelf grinds.

Thats kind of a BS statement in reguards to the cam you're talking about. There is nothing special about the DLS 210/210, its right inline with all the other cams offered. The only real difference is if you get the DLS 210/210 billet roller is it will run the PTE style nose set up. This has nothing to do with any of the performance or behavior characteristics of the cam, its just how they locate the cam front to back in the motor. I talked to Dan earlier this year and he wanted around $1300 for this cam set up. You can get an austemper version for several hundred less ($800 from Mike Licht). Licht stocks 206/210 and 210/215 both ground with 110 LSA. Both of these will have about .026" more valve lift than the DLS cam. You can custom order a 210/210- 110 lsa austemper from Licht also.

Now that you're leaning towards a roller you need to decide what rpm's you want to shift at. The DLS 210/210 or the austemper 210/215 from Licht will both want to pull real hard to 6000 rpms if you got good heads. If you're leaning more towards wanting to shift in the 5500 rpm and under range I would go with the 206/210. The 210/210 will still work good shifting at 5500 or a little under but you won't be fully taking advantage of it. The HP was still climbing on Surej's motor at 6000 rpm with the 210/210, so its save to say that the HP peak was going to be 6000+ rpms. Surej's motor had a few things that would help it build HP at the higher rpm's that most guys don't have and I'm sure that effected it. Rogers motor was pretty much off the shelf stuff and his 210/210 ran best shifted right at 6k. As a rule of thumb you want to shift right at or a little higher rpm than where your HP peak is. MOST guys aren't comfortable shifting these Buick motors over the 6k range.

Its kind of complicated and I'm pretty sure most people don't read my long post but a custom ordered 206/215- 110 LSA austemper would be a great 5500 shift point cam. This would have great idle, spool up, and power. I think you're going to see the great results people are having with the split duration cams (more exhaust duration than intake) lead to these cams becoming more and more popular.

HTH: Jason

 

[Hiwinds]

Ok I have a question now. I have the atr g roller cam in the tta I just bought. Has ported heads and the such. Where should I be shifting. As far as I know it still has the stock rods in it will they live to 5500?

 

[Razor]

.317 lift and a 1.67 rocker gets you .530 lift.

Your gonna need some LS1 springs as well.

Jason.. you need a running motor to use a cam .. Surej made me do it

Nothing wrong with straight up patterns.. 210/210.. 212/212.. etc.. The split pattern.. we'll see... soon enough..

Funny how these cars dont care bout the cam.. I would spend the money on head work before I would a cam. :wink:

What RPM to shift at.. as low as it will make power.. Then its as high as it stays together.. 5500 RPM's.. I would only wish I could stay there..

Funny nobody has brought up the roller rocker issue Cuase when the cam goes bigger... the springs get bigger... the load on the POS factory rocker starts becoming an issue..

 

[postal]

Ok I have a question now. I have the atr g roller cam in the tta I just bought. Has ported heads and the such. Where should I be shifting. As far as I know it still has the stock rods in it will they live to 5500?

YES, alot of stock rod guys shift at 6000 with no issues.

Jason.. you need a running motor to use a cam .. Surej made me do it

I'm working on it, actually two of them. My TTA build up is/was down to headers, down pipes, intercooler piping, pushrods, gaskets, fuel pump, and a throttle body. I've spent five times the amount of money it would have taken to finish my car on building my nephews. I'm supposed to pick up the short block for my nephews car in the next few weeks from the machine shop. If I can figure out away to generate the money needed his GN will be out next year.

I would spend the money on head work before I would a cam.

Absolutely, a stock cam and ported heads will hit 11.50 easy. Once you're there then decide if a cage and a cam are what you want to do. The only problem is if you start running some good mph with a non lock up convertor you'll be grabbing overdrive well before the end of the track. If you pick a good cam to go with the heads you should be able to go 11.50 with low boost and pump gas no problem, and should be able to avoid grabbing OD.

Funny how these cars dont care bout the cam..

I disagree completely. Cars that are set up properly will run hard with out leaning on them.

Jason

 

[AKTURBOTA]

Thanks for all your comments...lots to read and to reflect on. I looked in Turbolink and noticed that my car shifts from 1st to 2nd at approx 5100-5200 (33 mph). 2nd to 3rd is a little harder to determine, but going through the traps in 3rd gear at 112 to 114mph the rpms are again 5100-5200.

Given the previous info, it seems that the cam that I probably should select would be the 206/210 Austempter roller that Mike Licht sells, or are we really "splitting hairs" and it really doesn't make that much difference whether is is the 206/210 Austempter or the 210/210 DLS roller cam?

 

[postal]

are we really "splitting hairs" and it really doesn't make that much difference whether is is the 206/210 Austempter or the 210/210 DLS roller cam?

EXACTLY! As a rule of thumb approx every 10 degrees duration will change the power band by 500 rpm. We're sitting here talking about 206, 208, 210, 212 and all are ground on 110 degree lobe centers. This is probably why Razor feels are motors aren't picky about the cam. This is the proof that our motors are picky, thier very picky. They like small cams ground around 110 degree centers. If our motors weren't picky we would be debating cams between 205 and 235 and then we would get all up in what lobe separation angle to grind it at. With this relatively narrow range of duration and lobe centers that our cams are ground to, the only real thing to debate is roller on no roller. The rollers have a decided advantage in reliability so the next question is wether or not a roller is worth a few extra ponies. I will list a few names of people I've talked to about a roller in a turbo Buick being worth some good HP and not just a couple:

Joe Lubrant
Harry Huskawhatever at PTE
Jack Cotton
Mike Licht
Ken Duttweiller
Dan Strezo

Those guys all say YES with out a doubt. Kenny D and Dan Strezo are probably the two top turbo Buick engine builders in the country....

The main reason and really the only reason I say the 206/210 vs the 210/210 is the 210 really likes to go to 6k. If you pick a self imposed red line of 5500 then it stands to reason that a 6k cam will be giving up a little in the lower rpms that the 206 may not. If you plan on shifting at or close to 6k then I say go 210/215 austemper. I recently ported a set of heads, intake, and headers for my buddies GN. He has the 210/215 austemper and we made one pass and went 11.29 at 19 psi, pump gas, 21 degrees timing, 63 turbo, non lock up, shifting at only 5200. Basically the car was in "tinker toy mode" and it still ran pretty good. So a cam that size will work shifting early but it won't run like it should till we raise the shift point. This car should be able to go 11.0 or 10.9 at 19 pounds no problem.

but going through the traps in 3rd gear at 112 to 114mph the rpms are again 5100-5200.

There is your problem that I was trying to warn you about. I have been there and done this. You add even a little more power and pick up just a couple mph and you are going to have to grab over drive. You pick up a good bit of mph and you're going to be grabbing OD a few hundred feet before the end of the track. A taller tire and 5500 will get you into the low 120's with out hitting OD. 6000 rpms will get you close to the 130 mark. If you go with 5500 shifts you will probably find your self never coming close to maxing out your combo. The car will mph to much if you turn the boost up and that will have you deciding wether to 1. run a higher rpm in drive 2. grab OD and stay in it 3. take a low 120 mph time slip and be happy with it.

Theres the rub. You post a mid/low 11 second time slip with ported heads and a roller cam and people will line up to tell you that you wasted you're money. I say who's car is it and who's money did you spend? Its your damn car and your damn money! You build that thing the way YOU want to. Do people get bashed for having a few grand in a fancy set of aftermarket wheels, or for having a few grand in a stereo? Put a few hundred extra into a roller cam because you like the feed back you've gotten on them and let the public execution begin. Pay attention to the build ups some of those guys are running when thier giving you the you're spending to much money speach.

Good luck with your build up man. You set that baby up the way you want and don't second guess yourself. I'm going to send you a PM so check your PM box.

Jason Loftus

 

[Razor]

My car at BG with a 210/205 ran 10.9 at 126
My car at Reynolds with a 221/221 ran 10.5 at 133

Here is the data log thread so you can see the shifts at 6k.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170765

My car having it shift at 5100 and going into OD ran 10.78 a month and half ago.

Both non-roller cams.. stock pistons.. stock crank.. stock rods.. non-lockup converter.. hey I like doing things on a budget.

Jason, all the guys listed above are running StageII's.. cept for Licht..

 

[89ICBM]

89ICBM:

I think you may be a little confused. I think you're confusing gross duration with .050" duration.

Nope! not confused at all! I just listed the advertised duration at 4000.


A CompCams 218/218 is 218 degrees at .050" and its 268 degrees gross. The cam you listed at 276/270 WOULD NOT idle at 500 rpms if those are the .050" specs. The .050" specs on your cam are probably in the high 2-teens to low 2-twenties if its an aggressive lobe cam like the Comps. If its not an aggressive ramp cam then the .050" specs are probably in the mid 2-teens or lower. Its really hard to tell how big a cam is by looking at gross duration.

The @ 0.050 for my cam is 230/224. It is a 112° cam with a 51° overlap. The lift at the lobes is 0.322/0.312 and I am running a custom roller rocker set up with a 1.6 ratio, heads were done by GTP. It idles at 500 just fine. TFTH!

 

[postal]

The @ 0.050 for my cam is 230/224. It is a 112° cam

I went nuts for about 3 weeks because of being obsessed with trying to pick a good cam for my stage motor going in my TTA. There are multiple variations of a given size lobe. There might be 6 different 224 lobes. So i didn't just have to pick what duration, I had to pick which exact lobes I wanted, then figure out what lobe separation angle I wanted, and lastly it had to fit in the cam core blank w/o breaking through the heat treated layer. when I decided on what I wanted, which was a 224/224 @ 112 LSA I called comp up and they said if I went a little bigger it would help preserve the integrity of the harden surface (basically it wouldn't get to thin). I then decided to do a 230/230 @ 113 and thats how I ordered it. As you can see the cam you purchased is right inbetween the cam I wanted and the cam I ordered. I hope this prooves to be a good cam for me. The thing is I ordered this cam to go on a twin turbo stroker motor that I want to shift at 7200 to 7500 rpms. A 230/230 may seam a little small for my application but you have to consider two things:

1. This will be a stage 2 headed motor. Stage 2 heads are radical extremely high flowing race heads. A high flow cylinder head set up does not need as much cam to make HP for a given shift point.

2. In general its better to error on the small side when picking a cam.


You seam to be happy with your cam and I hope I'm pleased with mine when it finally makes it out of my garage some day.

Could you please give me some info on your rocker arm set up. I have a friend with a TTA and we would be very interested in what it takes to do this. If you PM'd me your phone number I could give you a call about it.

Thank you: Jason
309-253-7991