Can't Compete with This

[Mr. Michael]

I luv-luv that kind of data @Nigel - Now I can put that in my arsenal and be more educated than most, yes? I think that benefits us all. With that said, I just sold off some ownership in a company that repairs (not makes) wind turbine transmissions. I (over the last seven years) have gotten in tune with that much of the "grid" side so that I could gain some advantage as I worked through the investment. With that team of turbine experts we had concluded the best efforts from an individual standing was to power your personal EV with your own turbine or solar panel (I could not imagaine my own personal turbine so I went with the latter). And with that said I can pretty much assure you that my set up is not a hinderance to the grid that we speak of. In fact, if everyone EV followed suit I think even you would say it could be beneficial. In my last conversation with the management team (that are working with the newest Tesla plant in TX) they also found those who rely on themselves to energize their personal EV's are helping, not hindering the grid. But I dig your input and never saw any snark! Minds like yours are only going to help the future. Same goes for my guys, so keep it up.

And @SCOOBY DOO - Nothing personal: Them there people are from California... The land of fruits & nuts. I can't help.

 

[Nigel]

I luv-luv that kind of data @Nigel - Now I can put that in my arsenal and be more educated than most, yes? I think that benefits us all. With that said, I just sold off some ownership in a company that repairs (not makes) wind turbine transmissions. I (over the last seven years) have gotten in tune with that much of the "grid" side so that I could gain some advantage as I worked through the investment. With that team of turbine experts we had concluded the best efforts from an individual standing was to power your personal EV with your own turbine or solar panel (I could not imagaine my own personal turbine so I went with the latter). And with that said I can pretty much assure you that my set up is not a hinderance to the grid that we speak of. In fact, if everyone EV followed suit I think even you would say it could be beneficial. In my last conversation with the management team (that are working with the newest Tesla plant in TX) they also found those who rely on themselves to energize their personal EV's are helping, not hindering the grid. But I dig your input and never saw any snark! Minds like yours are only going to help the future. Same goes for my guys, so keep it up.

And @SCOOBY DOO - Nothing personal: Them there people are from California... The land of fruits & nuts. I can't help.

That is true, not being grid tied and charging the car strictly from the sun is a good thing and certainly has zero impact on the grid. I can totally dig the technology and the fact you can charge from the sun. Residential solar has a lot of upside if set up right. Right, wrong, or indifferent, I could go on and on how I think the right way is to do that, I would looking for as much grid independence as possible. Its expensive and at current rates no payback anytime soon. It is security though. Sounds like you are involved in some interesting stuff, and I certainly appreciate the qualified response. I usually like to keep to topic instead of talking about myself, but since you gave me some qualified background I will return the courtesy, I am an engineer deeply involved in the design and build of utility scale power generating turbines and power plants.

 

[Mr. Michael]

Let me tell you Nigel I honestly mean it when I say your input is appreciated. I am trying to continuously profit from whatever is coming down the pike and your data will be used. What seems to be important is VARS (the phase angle which pulls amp wave & volt wave together for an elec motor to produce torque). As I would imagine you know - that grid you speak of needs mechanical generators that produce those VARS to stay stable. My claims that I had made were based on the effect my set up has on that (none). I may have just broadcasted that poorly which lead to you calling it out. No harm though as we are on the same track.

We think when & if solar & wind displace VAR producing big steam gens it can eventually destabilize that grid. But those chances are remote. You know that we need big generators for inertia but as renewables (funded by government) force big generators to bankruptcy (then shut down) the grid will be less stable. My pals run their hydro units at zero power output just to produce VARS strictly making up for the less than optimal renewable sources. Of course those renewables don't produce any spinning reserve (sorta what you spoke to earlier). So now grid operators are having to pay for thermal units to run at less than rating to maintain some spinning reserve. Here is the big thing... It could all work well (we think) together if guys like you (engineers) figured out the economics between dispatching the two - rather than the accountants & politicians.

Stay on it. We need you to make it work.

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1639617575481901058

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1573306395918737409

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

Driving 100 Miles in an EV Is Now More Expensive Than in an ICE

Deadhead miles and opportunity costs make electric vehicle ownership dramatically more expensive than just your average car powered by a gas engine.

jalopnik.com

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

Biden blocks mineral mining on 225,000 acres of land, harming EV production needs

"Joe Biden signed an agreement to fund mining projects in Chinese-owned mines in the Congo, where over 40,000 children work as slaves in forced labor and inhumane conditions with no environmental protections," said Rep. Pete Stauber (R-Minn.).

justthenews.com

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

EV batteries lack repairability leading some insurers to junk whole cars after even minor collisions

Some insurers are forced to scrap whole electric vehicles if their batteries are scratched or slightly damaged as they lack repairability and cost as much as 50% of the total vehicle.

www.foxbusiness.com

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2022/12/29/how_did_evs_handle_americas_arctic_blast_872663.html

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

Electric shock: Spike in U.K. energy prices push cost of running EVs above gas-powered cars

Charging electric vehicles in the U.K. will soon be more expensive than filling up gasoline-powered cars thanks to skyrocketing electricity costs — an economic switcheroo that could be a harbinger of shrinking financial benefits for Americans who go green.

amp.washingtontimes.com

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

 

[Nigel]

Let me tell you Nigel I honestly mean it when I say your input is appreciated. I am trying to continuously profit from whatever is coming down the pike and your data will be used. What seems to be important is VARS (the phase angle which pulls amp wave & volt wave together for an elec motor to produce torque). As I would imagine you know - that grid you speak of needs mechanical generators that produce those VARS to stay stable. My claims that I had made were based on the effect my set up has on that (none). I may have just broadcasted that poorly which lead to you calling it out. No harm though as we are on the same track.

We think when & if solar & wind displace VAR producing big steam gens it can eventually destabilize that grid. But those chances are remote. You know that we need big generators for inertia but as renewables (funded by government) force big generators to bankruptcy (then shut down) the grid will be less stable. My pals run their hydro units at zero power output just to produce VARS strictly making up for the less than optimal renewable sources. Of course those renewables don't produce any spinning reserve (sorta what you spoke to earlier). So now grid operators are having to pay for thermal units to run at less than rating to maintain some spinning reserve. Here is the big thing... It could all work well (we think) together if guys like you (engineers) figured out the economics between dispatching the two - rather than the accountants & politicians.

Stay on it. We need you to make it work.

So this is pretty cool and for the most part of this I must bow to the "lectical gods". So for context, I understand the real and imaginary component of the AC power vector and generally the influences of the generator and the loads. My focus is mechanical, process (degree is aerospace engineering), along with a large portion of systems, plant integration, and definition for controls of steam turbines in combined cycle plants along with expertise in the balance of plant systems (I overlap a wide swath which keeps it interesting). But to your point, a generating facility can actually control the reactive power (VARS) and there are grid regulations around the power factor required. On the consumption side, the electrical engineering part of VARS and large motors is outside my expertise and in the domain of electrical engineers (a large team is required, we all can't be Tesla). While I don't have the expertise to explain the reactive power portion in the context of grid stability, the actual (real and imaginary) output (shaft power) has to match the demand, which goes back to my first post.
The supply side of power production is both simple and complicated, the difficulty lies in the relationship between the energy trader, the energy producer, and the grid authority. Then add in the EPA, that continually destabilizes the market, so that it is difficult to design a plant to meet the current requirements. Way more grid studies and power plant optimization is required to your point. I am very vocal and push way more than I probably should to get the little part of the industry that I can influence to wake up, but I think something will have to break first. It could be dramatically improved.

 

[Nigel]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1639617575481901058

Scoob has a point on the humanitarian issue, I find myself becoming more liberal on these points as I get older.

 

[TIMINATOR]

Laptops, cell fones, battery drills, grinders, battery impact wrenches, led lighting, electric tooth brushes, roomba vacuums, small rechargeable hand vacuums, rechargeable electric razors, electric cars, electric scooters, e bikes, electric motorcycles, all operate on D.C.
As can blenders, mixmasters, can openers, electric die grinders, dremel tools, plug in electric drills saws, routers, impact wrenches and more that employ AC/DC brush type universal motors. What is my point?
You take your solar panel or wind turbine that generates DC current, run it thru an inverter(not cheap and requires semi conductors, copper wires, packaging, and shipping to get to the end user), turn it into AC, (not at 100% efficiency) then all of those battery powered items previously mentioned, require a step down AC to DC convertor (that no one ever unplugs, but still draws a small but measurable amount of power) that plugs in the AC outlet and since nothing, ever, is 100% efficient, is wasting power reconverting it back into DC to charge all of that stuff. All of those inverters, converters, and chargers require plastics(from fossil fuels), wire and other metals that had to be mined, and since the " greenies" won't allow any of these raw materials to be mined here, need to be mined in other countries, AND SHIPPED HERE ON SHIPS BURNING THE FOSSIL FUELS YOU ARE TRYING TO ELIMINATE THE USE OF!!!!
What the HELL do you think you are gaining? A rhetorical, but meaningful question!
Soap box session is over for now, but think about it!
Maybe we need to take the DC from solar, and run a separate set of wires, breaker boxes, and outlets in every house to charge all of this stuff! But then you still have to mine the metals, and use fossil fuels to make plastic to insulate and package this extra crap too!
AgainI ask you, what are you actually gaining?
Screw it, my brain hurts, I'm gonna go back in the garage and work on my fossil fuel, but non pretentious Turbo Coupe.
TIMINATOR
P.S. My dad, uncle, and grandfather all worked in coal fueled power plants that provided most of the power for everything that exists today.

 

[corsair231]

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

Finally, someone else has said it. If EeeeVeee's are supposed to save the environment, then why are they being built with so much more power requirements than they actually need? I understand the bragging rights of the biggest gun but do production cars actually need ludicrous speed capability? If they are so great for the world, wouldn't they be better with less? Don't get me wrong, I am a total car nut, and their performance is incredible, I just hate being "forced" into accepting them because they are supposedly "our saviour" when that really doesn't appear to be the case.

 

[T-type Jones]

With decades of technology it would be expected that there will be quicker/faster vehicles. And they might be cool, just not to me.

Yeah, they do have an advantage...They have two, if not three motors to our one. They can still be beaten if your pockets are fat enough

 

[TIMINATOR]

Why is Harley Davidson still building motorcycles 120 YEARS later?
Because they're the fastest? No.
Because they're the most economical? No.
The cheapest? No.
The most whiz-bang, gee-gaw, cutting edge tech? No.
How about retro, cool, and the best sounding? Yup.
Not ever gonna get that in an electric anything either.
I drove an electric HD a while back, dead quiet, you can hear the drive and tires.
Electronic traction control, wheelie control, no shifting, and BORING AS F-CK!
All that and a 125 mile range, whoopee.
Drive from Phx. To Tuscon, charge it for 5 hours.
Don't think so. I get about 200 miles/tank on my hot rodded, sounds BAD ASS, high 10 sec HD Pro Street Breakout, with a 5 minute fill up, and I'm gone.
Why are gasoline and diesels still in common use for 100+ years?
Gasoline and diesel have about the highest energy density per pound of common fuels. Not under hundreds of pounds of pressure with a heavy tank like propane, thousands of pounds pressure with an even heavier tank like hydrogen, nor a battery that weighs half as much as the rest of the vehicle! And, your choice is a quick, non pressurized few minute fill-up, or 5 hour charge.
I deeply resent the green idiots in government wasting MY tax dollars on subsidies for a non viable product that neither the infrastructure, current technology nor the electric grid can support!
TIMINATOR

 

[Chuck Leeper]

P.S. My dad, uncle, and grandfather all worked in coal fueled power plants that provided most of the power for everything that exists today.

A large part of my working career was in the heavy equipment industry.
I worked with earthmoving/mining equipment at a lot of coal fired plants, nuc construction sites, and mines all across America.
I lost my job when the coal industry was killed by the absurd "rules" from the OSM, the office of surface mining. Circa 1979.
Since I retired, I've been to many of the locations that were once large power producers. All are gone, and the sites have been repurposed.
Sad times are upon us yet once again.

 

[Nigel]

Laptops, cell fones, battery drills, grinders, battery impact wrenches, led lighting, electric tooth brushes, roomba vacuums, small rechargeable hand vacuums, rechargeable electric razors, electric cars, electric scooters, e bikes, electric motorcycles, all operate on D.C.
As can blenders, mixmasters, can openers, electric die grinders, dremel tools, plug in electric drills saws, routers, impact wrenches and more that employ AC/DC brush type universal motors. What is my point?
You take your solar panel or wind turbine that generates DC current, run it thru an inverter(not cheap and requires semi conductors, copper wires, packaging, and shipping to get to the end user), turn it into AC, (not at 100% efficiency) then all of those battery powered items previously mentioned, require a step down AC to DC convertor (that no one ever unplugs, but still draws a small but measurable amount of power) that plugs in the AC outlet and since nothing, ever, is 100% efficient, is wasting power reconverting it back into DC to charge all of that stuff. All of those inverters, converters, and chargers require plastics(from fossil fuels), wire and other metals that had to be mined, and since the " greenies" won't allow any of these raw materials to be mined here, need to be mined in other countries, AND SHIPPED HERE ON SHIPS BURNING THE FOSSIL FUELS YOU ARE TRYING TO ELIMINATE THE USE OF!!!!
What the HELL do you think you are gaining? A rhetorical, but meaningful question!
Soap box session is over for now, but think about it!
Maybe we need to take the DC from solar, and run a separate set of wires, breaker boxes, and outlets in every house to charge all of this stuff! But then you still have to mine the metals, and use fossil fuels to make plastic to insulate and package this extra crap too!
AgainI ask you, what are you actually gaining?
Screw it, my brain hurts, I'm gonna go back in the garage and work on my fossil fuel, but non pretentious Turbo Coupe.
TIMINATOR
P.S. My dad, uncle, and grandfather all worked in coal fueled power plants that provided most of the power for everything that exists today.

You will not find any serious discussion in the main stream over any of these points. There are very few people in the industry even that can address these question or are aware of the challenges. The people running the companies that are part of the equipment, supply, delivery are all brazen check book balancers that weaseled their way up the chains. I promise, most know very little how stuff actually works, they were/are good at cooking the books that's how they got their positions. In some ways, I am lucky because I am isolated from them most of the time, but it is a bad sign that these so called leaders do not know enough to even investigate what I do everyday.
There are no real market forces driving a "transition". It is all government propaganda and abuse of tax payer funds. The current grid is very old in many ways, could be time for an overhaul, but it has to be market driven to work. Overpowered electric cars are a perfect example of mixing government trying to control a market with consumer demand also driving it, the consumer wants the power obviously, but it is contrary to the "green" goals. If we stay on the current trajectory, we are headed for a grid crises, needlessly. This past year California (as usual), Texas, and the mid-west were on the verge of not having enough power to supply demand. Over the winter the east coast had rolling blackouts because demand exceeded production. If the grid operators make a mistake, expect a cascading blackout, if that happens it takes days to recover the grid, if not longer.