Can't use a 100 octane Thrasher ?

[TurboSlacker]

Tested my 87GN with a 100 octane Thrasher chip and denatured alcohol. With the alky pump speed 10 and turn-on at 10 psi and stock turbo at 19-20lbs I still get too much knock at the high end. Seeing 5 deg at 100 mph and climbing with higher speeds. Playing with fuel pressure on my stock injectors btn 42-46psi resulted in little improvement. No transitional knock and it pulls great, but I can't live with that much knock going thru the traps. Just too much timing in 3rd gear.

I guess my car runs better with lower timing and more boost. Any other ideas of how to make this 100 octane Thrasher work on pump gas and alky? If not, then I'll have Jim Testa burn me an alky chip.

 

[Razor]

One problem is your at pump speed 10. Whereas if the system delivered more alcohol..then maybe you could get away with it. Also at that boost level, I would look at your SMC kits pump pressure output. It may be weak and not supply enough alky.

Just becuase it sprays..doesnt mean its working

You should be able to control the 100 thrasher at the boost your running on straight denatured...typically. At 25-26 PSI then its a whole other story.

Sorry for the ramble, check the pump by tee-ing a pressure guage while its spraying. Should see at least 75-80 PSI. If not time for a new pump.

You can try a thrasher 92. Its identical to the 100 in every way cept a couple timing slots. So if you like the way that chip works..down size to the 92 and chances are you'll be happy. I probably have a spare one if you need it, email off list.

Julio

 

[TurboSlacker]

In fact, I have run it with a 92 Thrasher and it did fine. 23 lbs of boost and zero knock with the pump speed set at only 5 and turn on at 13 lbs. I was really surprised that I couldn't run the 100 Thrasher at 20lbs of boost without knock.

FYI, this is the used SMC kit that you recently sold me, Razor. For only 5k miles and 1-1/2 yrs old I would be disappointed if the pump is weak. But you may be right, so I'll send it to Steve after this weekend to have him check it out. I'll let you know what he finds out.

I'm pleased with running alky on the street, just want to be able to see similar results that others have achieved with the 100 Thrasher.

 

[Razor]

Some cars can handle timing, others cant. Its how it is. Sometimes if the motor has a lot of miles, you'll have a lot of carbon buildup which can cuase detonation.

The fact that it works ok with the lower timing chip indicates the pump is putting out. These pumps in the SMC kits dont flood your motor, and they typically work or dont. Your requirements for alcohol?? Dunno.

Per Steve's recommendation, these kits are designed with a GN running 20 PSI on a street chip. If you get more thats great. In fact...

___________________________________________________
Quote from august 1'st this year,

SMC response
Many people are running over 20 psi with the kit, I just try to be conservative in my estimates to keep people happy. If they end up at 22-23- then they're extra pleased. Most TRs don't need to have the spray come on till 12-13 psi. If you are fighting some transitional knock, the progressive controller will work better- since we can start to spray as low as 7-8 psi, and then ramp up to as high as 100 psi with the newer pumps. I generally ignore 3-4 degrees of retard....tuning for 0 knock is not very realistic. I really, really tried to blow a head gasket in the 5 years spent testing & tuning with alcohol, but my 97,000 mile original gaskets are still in place.
__________________________________________________

If you decide to send it back to Steve, let me know what he finds.

Boy I hate these things would suck if the pump was replaced and it still knocked with the 100 thrasher.

 

[TurboSlacker]

I agree with you, Razor; I doubt it's the pump. I don't expect anything. It's a used unit and I knowingly purchase used parts in "as is" condition. I'm simply exchanging information to help myself and others.

I went to the drag strip today and ran it with the 92 Thrasher just to be safe. Had no problems pushing 23 lbs of boost on the stock turbo with zero knock. My engine has only 40k miles and is cleaned, tuned and baselined. Even the stock injectors have been cleaned and flowed. I think my engine just can't handle the higher timing 100 Thrasher unlike a few who have successfully used it. I confirmed with Dennis Hogan that his 10 second street T-Type never liked the high timing chips with alky either. Interesting how different these engines can be.

I could use a chip somewhere between a 92 and 100 Thrasher. Since I'm not ready to invest in a T+ or MaxEffort system yet, I guess I'll have Lubrant or Testa burn me an alky chip for my setup.

 

[Razor]

Dont get hung on the timing deal too much. Your going to make more power by increasing the boost a notch or two than upping the timing. In other words there is more power to be had at 25 PSI and a 20 degree chip than 21 with a 23 degree chip. The lower timing chips tend to knock way less even at increased boost levels.

You can experiment mixing water in the tank, for me and my car it didnt fair well with the SMC kit. I have yet to try mixing with my current setup since its been working great and making power. Every car is different.

If you ran 23 PSI and didnt knock, what else can I say

BTW, they made a thrasher 97 chip at one time.

Steve, I hear ya. Maybe water mixes work better with the shureflow setups?? I'll try it on mine in next few weeks.

 

[Scott231]

Originally posted by Razor
BTW, they made a thrasher 97 chip at one time.

Actually I still do. If you have injectors that are between 28 and 38pph, you can generally pick and choose between 92, 97, 100, and 108 chips.

 

[Razor]

Good point Steve..

3000 miles .. thats a lot of 1/4 mile passes

 

[TurboSlacker]

Razor,
I hear what you're saying about increasing boost vs. timing, but in my setup I'm already maxed out with with stock turbo at 22-23 lbs of boost. I understand that its efficiency drops off beyond that level and it will just push out more hot air. Now I'm trying to optimize the timing with stock turbo maxed and alky flowing.

Stevemon,
I was pondering the same idea that maybe an alky/water mix may perform better than straight denatured with a higher timing chip with my setup. Nice, affordable thing to try out Gotta love the steam cleaning benefits!

Scott,
Thank you, thank you, thank you!! I think your 97 Thrasher just might be the ticket. Would you suggest using it with my stock injectors or putting in my 37# delphi's, considering that I'm running a stock turbo ?

 

[Scott231]

Originally posted by TurboSlacker
Scott,
Thank you, thank you, thank you!! I think your 97 Thrasher just might be the ticket. Would you suggest using it with my stock injectors or putting in my 37# delphi's, considering that I'm running a stock turbo ?

With the 37pph injectors, you will be able to get into the Eleven's with a stock turbo. Accordingly, I would go with those injectors. The Thrasher 97 probably won't get you into the 11's (that what the 108 is for), but it is what you are asking about.

But you should be able to run the 100 chip with pump gas and alky at WOT as so many other people have noted. You prolly have something else amiss.

 

[Razor]

Also assumming the 100 thrasher chip you have is a 100 thrasher and not a 108 by mistake

Its tight to get the stock turbo into the 11's...not impossible but tight.

FWIW, I would run 23-24 1st and 2nd and bring the boost down to 20-21 in third with a 92 thrasher. I would run 12.1 at 111 approx. stock injectors at 120 percent. Switched to the 50's and went identical time and MPH, duty cycle at 70 percent.

 

[Scott231]

Originally posted by Razor
Also assumming the 100 thrasher chip you have is a 100 thrasher and not a 108 by mistake

I have both 100 octane Thrashers and 108 octane thrashers.

 

[tim87tr]

Originally posted by Scott231
I have both 100 octane Thrashers and 108 octane thrashers.

Scott, real quick question. I just picked up a 108, been running the 100. Do you know the approximate timing difference?

 

[scottyb]

FWIW, I had the same experience with the T100. I only made 2 or 3 runs with it, so I don't have a solution. I put my RA93 back in and ran the same times with no knock.

 

[TurboSlacker]

Thanks Scottyb.
I've heard from a few other folks now that they also experienced similar knock condition with the 100 Thrasher.

Maybe my GN does have something slightly off, but I've checked everything that I know of and it did put out respectable mph (nearly 106) with the 93 Thrasher and stock turbo. I think I'll remain in denial of any tune problems to go chase until something reveals itself.

I'm simply going to install the 37# injectors, have a chip made for my combo to get the most timing I can run with 22 lbs of boost and alky. I'm sure I'll be happy with that

I really believe that more timing at max boost is definitely the way to go with the smaller stock turbo.

Thanks for all the input, guys!

 

[Razor]

Dan,
I dunno what it is..somecars can handle timing better than others. I know you want to stretch the limits of the power you can harness.. but sometimes things like turbo's, innercoolers, heads, etc play a major role in detonation handling.

I can squeeze a couple extra degrees at the track, but not on the street. If my motor, ic, and turbo are cool..then I can get a little edge... but my own car on the edge isnt happy knock wise. So I typically use a street chip low timing, higher boost and all is well.

"There is more power to be had on boost than timing"

Look at timing when you've exhuasted trying higher boost...

Cheers