CAR DIED!! no spark, fixing & selling it, I'm done

[VADER]

Drove the car today which I rarely do. I'm lucky if I put 1000 miles in the past year on it. This is my 2nd time typing this, 1st one timed out or something. I floor the gas from about a 20 mph roll,tires spin quietly(nittos),when they hook, the car dies on me.
I pull over and tried starting again,just cranks & cranks. Pop the hood,of course I disconnect the ecm before checking the SM for a code. Tried starting again,unplugged maf, everything looks fine under the hood. Tow it home, attach a spark plug tester to a wire,and get no spark. I'm figuring,after doing a search here, that it either the coil pack, crank sensor,or even a loose connection. I realized it wasn't a loose nut behind the wheel,because I had someone else try starting it. Anyway, I checked the no start check on gnttype,but I'm not fluent in Greek. Is there an easy way to check this?
I have a voltmeter, little patience, and a wallet with a broken flap that is a pain to open. Am I on the right track with the testing,or should I have gotten off at the previous exit? I'm pretty sure either way,I will sell this car,and cut my losses. These turbo buicks cost too much for something I rarely use. Thanks for any help.

 

[Steve Wood]

This was posted by Jimmy Da Testa the other day...rather than try to tell you how to look...I am going to let you read Jim's write up as it is more logical than most of the stuff I write and cuts to the chase. Read point # 3. (the second # 3) LOL By the way, most parts places have a noid light for about 7 bucks...




<<<<<<Hmm...are you the guy that IM'd me about a noid light blinking but no start?

OK, to diagnose ANY car, you need to find what you have and dont have. The way *I* usually go about it (which might not be right to some people, but its methodical and consistant so I stick to it.

1) Note the check engine light (if EFI). If its not on, STOP and find out why. Listen to how it cranks. I can pick out compression problems doing this. If you are in tune to your car, you can too. Listen to the starter as each cyl comes up on compression stoke. You'll hear the starter slow down a little at that point. You bight hear deerdeerdeerdeer, where a dead cyl m ight sound like deerdeeeeedeerdeer (great sound effects huh?)

2)Depending how accessible the intake is, I'll shoot 3 or 4 seconds of carb cleaner into the plenum. Either thru the throttle body, or the brake booster vacuum port. If its a lack of fuel problem, the car may start, it may simply kick. If it does either, its time to look to fuel system (usually, although enrighening can bring out a low sec output problem too, so dont take my suggestion of fuel as law)

3) If the car kicked, I'll put a FP gauge on it. If fuel pressure isnt in spec, now you need to see why. Fuel pump, filter, resticted line, bad reg, low batt voltage, bad relay, blown fuse etc. If FP is in spec, its time to hook up a noid light and verify our injectors are getting pulsed. If youre not getting a pulse you will want to hook up a scanner and look for RPM during crank. If you are getting RPM signal, check for spark. If you're getting spark and no fuel, although there is a commanded PW (see below) you probably have a bad ECM. How fast it cranks isnt as important as the fact you get a RPM signal. Next you'll look at Coolant temp to see if it coincides with ambient )if the car is cold), and verify TPS isnt shorted to Vref which will put the car in clear flood and cut off fuel. If these all look OK, you'll want to take a look at commanded PW.

3) If the car didnt kick, I'll yank a plug wire and see if I got spark. If I got no spark, then I'll check also for inj pulse using a noid light. If I have neither its usually due to a dead crank sensor. If I have no spark, but I have injector pulse, its usually a module.

See, its pretty cut and dry when you go back to basics of what the car needs. Air, fuel, spark, and compression. If any are missing, the car wont run. The hard part I guess is finding out what you DONT have, then finding out why. I guess I take my experience for granted, maybe it is difficult. Kinda like Me trying to learn or diagnose a Linux problem (Right Jeremy?)

Hope this helps, and if you have any ?'s, email me: jtesta1966@aol.com, or post them here so everyone mgiht be able to give some more.

__________________
Jim Testa
1986 Regal T-Type

>>>>>>>>

 

[Wolfj359]

It could be a number of things but if you are not getting any spark to any of your wires I would check the following:

Ohm your coil pack with a voltmeter. Should read between 11-14 volts on all 3 pairs of posts.

Swap a known good module in and see if it works.

Swap cam sensor cap and crank sensor with known good ones if above doesnt fix problem.

Another possibility, but unlikely IMO, is a bad computer.

I would wager that your problem lies with the coil pack or the module. If you know anyone nearby with a TR you can swap in their coil pack/module 1 at a time to find your problem. If you have some donor parts you should be able to diagnose your problem in under an hour. Good Luck.

BTW, you should think long and hard about selling the GN, you will probably wish you didnt sell it later when its too late. The ignition parts on these cars are OLD and have to be replaced sooner or later the same as with any other 15 year old car.

 

[Black Car]

Usually (IMHO) the main "NO start" problem is the crank sensor.
That is if the engine cranks over and the fuel pump can be heard running when you first turn the key to "on".

Gary

 

[arista5]

I would have to agree, about the crank sensor, if it had the slightest tap when you reved the motor, as soon as you got on it, it could have snapped, definitely check it for broken parts,

HTH

 

[tjthorson]

After hours of wire tracing and parts swapping, my no spark condition turned out to be a broken timing chain....

 

[TurboMike]

Turn the key on. Look and see if the SES light is on.

If yes, listen for the "3 second" fuel pump prime.
With the key still on, bump the starter. Do NOT crank, just bump it. The fuel pump should prime for three seconds everytime.

If it does NOT prime, probably the cranksensor. MOST the time No spark/no injector pulse/no fuel pump prime (by bumping the starter) is cranksensor.
If you have a aftermarket tach crank the engine to see if the tach is reading. If the needle is moving it IS getting a ref pulse from the cranksensor. If no movement it is not (again usually cranksensor).
This will work with stock tachs also, but they are not accurate and hard to read this way.

 

[URSPANKED]

You don't mention your engine mileage, but mine was the timing gear. It stripped almost all the (plastic) teeth.

 

[G McCall]

Originally posted by TurboMike
Turn the key on. Look and see if the SES light is on.

If yes, listen for the "3 second" fuel pump prime.
With the key still on, bump the starter. Do NOT crank, just bump it. The fuel pump should prime for three seconds everytime.

If it does NOT prime, probably the cranksensor. MOST the time No spark/no injector pulse/no fuel pump prime (by bumping the starter) is cranksensor.
If you have a aftermarket tach crank the engine to see if the tach is reading. If the needle is moving it IS getting a ref pulse from the cranksensor. If no movement it is not (again usually cranksensor).
This will work with stock tachs also, but they are not accurate and hard to read this way.

Wow!
Now thats a usable piece of info turbomike. I wish I would have known that before replacing a good crank sensor.
I copy many of these "tidbits" for later reference.

 

[tjthorson]

Umm, Mike, I have to disagree with this one. In my case, I did check/replace the crank sensor and all the wiring. With the timing chain broken, I got no tach movement (aftermarket) and no oil pressure while cranking, and of course, no spark.

Check to be sure the cam sensor is spinning!!!!

Also, if you download the wiring diagrams off GNTTYPE, my wiring colors were different from those diagrams. I had downloaded 3 different ones that were all different with respect to wire locations and colors.

A combination of all three were correct for my 86T.

 

[JT Lee]

Crank Sensor

I too had a crank sensor go bad on my car a couple years back. It was the oddest thing. Pulled out onto a road, kicked it down a little bit and...kachunk. The whole thing just died in the middle of the road. Nothing. Had to get the damn thing towed. The mechanic figured out what it was fast, because he has an 11 second GN, and knows these cars well.

Don't get discouraged. I never want to sell mine.

Jeff Lee

 

[VADER]

Thanks fpr the tips guys. I will check the coil pack, I can probably get my hands on another also.
Heres a stupid question. I thought the crank sensor was that round thing in front of the IAC, but after searching it looks like the cam sensor. I hate to ask, but can someone tell me where the crank sensor is?
The weird part is that after it hooked up, it must have jolted something either loose,or snapped something. I'm still very much towards selling at this point. Car has around 150K miles, motor was rebuilt around 3K-4K miles ago. I cannot verify the age of the sensors.

 

[buickman69]

Underneath the car behind the harmonic balancer.

That was the 1st thing i thought of and i see some one has mentioned it.

You can't get readings from the crank sensor (that i'm aware of)

I had a problem with a crank sensor once and it can have several simptoms.

They have had 4(i think) different versions of crank sensors thru the yrs and most likely you've still got the original.

 

[Wolfj359]

Just a little advice to possibly save you some time. If I were you I would borrow a coil pack/module assembly from someone and just plug it in, put the plug wires back on the coil pack and try to start the car. You will be able to diagnose and/or eliminate a possibility within about 10 minutes. 2 15mm nuts and one 10mm bolt and a 1/4 screw for the harness is all thats holding that sucker in. Now if you go and replace the crank sensor that will be a pain in the a$$. Try to eliminate the easy fix possibilities first. On the other hand it might be a good idea to replace your crank sensor and cam sensor cap for preventative maintenance because these along with your MAF sensor are probably the most notorious for no start situations due to the fact they are probably 15 years old.

Again, try not to get discouraged with your car. I have been there but I looked at it as gaining invaluable experience with my car and now I am confident that if there is any kind of problem with the car I can diagnose and fix it myself. If you go ahead and replace those sensors and make sure you have a good coil pack and module you should not have these problems anymore for quite a long time. Let us know what you find out.

 

[KendallF]

I almost posted to this yesterday...but I know how far away from me you live, Danny. If I can be of help, give me a call.

 

[Drthv8r]

A bad TPS sensor will cause these same no start problems too.

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by tjthorson
After hours of wire tracing and parts swapping, my no spark condition turned out to be a broken timing chain....

A broken timing chain wont crank normally...see thats where listening to your car comes in.

You need to find out if you got no spark/inj pulse. Like Steve said, get a noid light and keep it in the toolbox.

Typically:
No start - no spark, has inj pulse -> Module
No start - has spark no inj pulse -> ECM / cam sensor prob
No start - no spark OR inj pulse - crank sensor or module

Oh, and if the module is dead, I suggest putting a coil pack on it as well as most of the module failure are caused by an overheating or arcing coil.

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by Drthv8r
A bad TPS sensor will cause these same no start problems too.

Wont cause the car to die. And the check for TPS is shooting some carb cleaner in the motor to get it to kick. Once over 400 RPM the ECM comes OUT of clear flood and the car will start and set a TPS high code

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by TurboMike
If yes, listen for the "3 second" fuel pump prime.
With the key still on, bump the starter. Do NOT crank, just bump it. The fuel pump should prime for three seconds everytime.

If it does NOT prime, probably the cranksensor.

Well, in these cars a little more than a bump is necessary, its a 3x interrupter ring so you gotta move the motor 120* a 1 sec crank should put you past the ring each time and like Mike says, each time the ECM recieves a crank pulse it resets the FP timer.

Not argueing with Mikes method please understand. I use it all the time, but just that these cars need more than a little bump. The newer cars with 24x rings etc just need a bump

 

[Drthv8r]

"Wont cause the car to die."

The car will act like it's trying to cut off as in acting weird and if you don't feather the gas just right it will die on you. Once the motor dies it won't start with a bad TPS...been there done that.

"And the check for TPS is shooting some carb cleaner in the motor to get it to kick. Once over 400 RPM the ECM comes OUT of clear flood and the car will start and set a TPS high code"

As of right now I don't believe he's shot any carb cleaner in it to set the code to test the TBS. Just sharing something that happened to me is all.