Car&Driver 05 GT vs. 05 GTO

[Marc87GN]

Originally posted by NEARING
You could have fooled me!

It's not like I said I beat a Cobra or something.

20% drive line loss is a bit much.

15% would put it at 402 flywheel.

It's got 24 more cubes, better heads&cam and a good bit more compression.

20% is not a bit much for an automatic. 15% usually works for a manual. It doesn't matter until the cars hit the streets. We can speculate forever. As far as 0-6-, if I remember correctly, the magazines had the GN 0-60 @ 4.9 sec 17 years ago. 4.6 is definitely quick, but not mind blowing.

With 364 cubes it should be fast. Sorry if I don't get excited about a car doing what it is suppose to do with what it has. I went for a ride in a new M3 and that car was quite impressive siince it ran the bottom of 13s all day with only 3.2 liters NA. The GN is impressive because it has iron block, iron heads that flow like crap, but launches like few other cars can still to this dayat that weight.

 

[JDSfastGN]

Originally posted by Marc87GN
20% is not a bit much for an automatic. 15% usually works for a manual. It doesn't matter until the cars hit the streets. We can speculate forever. As far as 0-6-, if I remember correctly, the magazines had the GN 0-60 @ 4.9 sec 17 years ago. 4.6 is definitely quick, but not mind blowing.

With 364 cubes it should be fast. Sorry if I don't get excited about a car doing what it is suppose to do with what it has. I went for a ride in a new M3 and that car was quite impressive siince it ran the bottom of 13s all day with only 3.2 liters NA. The GN is impressive because it has iron block, iron heads that flow like crap, but launches like few other cars can still to this dayat that weight.

The M3 is a nice car, but it has no potential, it doesn't respond to mods at all. In fact they were recently recalled to be detuned as they are losing motors at a very high rate for a factory car. I see it as BMW taking the hard way out when it comes to making the power they want. The LS2 has more potential to compete in the HP wars that will continue to grow for the next few years. What i find impressive is that a 364 ci motor in a heavier car will still get better mileage than the m3. You may not be impressed but i am. The 05 GTO is a homerun. high 12s potential, an interior other cars close to its pricerange can only dream about and sedate but good looks. The GTO was also the door that opened for GM when it comes to RWD cars. Recent plans released show in 08 that the monte, impalla and an 08 camaro will all be released on te new Zeta platform. Also an HSV GTO equipped with the ls2(exact same drivetrain as our GTO but theirs is a bit heavier) was recently tested in australia and pulled a 13.0 at 112 mph (179.4 km/h converted) in an auto car. This is damn impressive and right there with the best stock trap speed ive seen personally out of an 03 cobra. (friend ran 12.4 at 112 bone stock down to tires in an 03 ) Heres the link on an Aussi ford board if ya wanna read it http://www.fordforums.com/showthread.php?t=92326 and heres the thread on ls2.com http://www.ls2.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=159000

 

[Marc87GN]

JDSfastGN,

Just to correct your post about the M3 because it is innaccurate. The recall relates to early Rod bearing failure. The cars are NOT being detuned, but are having the oil pump replaced, rod bearings replaced and the computers cold start/run characteristics reprogrammed. There was a problem with tolerances with the lubrication system and nothing to do with power output. I know this because I was a MB tech and the same family owned a BMW dealer across the street where my best friend works.

I agree that the LS2 has more potential going forward, but I wouldn't say that an M3 can't be modified to run extremely fast. If you have $$$, you can make anything fast. it's still just 3.2 liters pushing out more than 100 hp per liter NA which is always very impressive. I raced a few and they were much more of headache than some LS1s I raced especially on the topend. Remember, Supras make over 1000 rwhp with Inline 3.0 liters so I would never say anything can't be modified.

I'm sure the MPG is more related to the .50 OD in 6th gear than the engine.

 

[JDSfastGN]

Originally posted by Marc87GN
JDSfastGN,

Just to correct your post about the M3 because it is innaccurate. The recall relates to early Rod bearing failure. The cars are NOT being detuned, but are having the oil pump replaced, rod bearings replaced and the computers cold start/run characteristics reprogrammed. There was a problem with tolerances with the lubrication system and nothing to do with power output. I know this because I was a MB tech and the same family owned a BMW dealer across the street where my best friend works.

I agree that the LS2 has more potential going forward, but I wouldn't say that an M3 can't be modified to run extremely fast. If you have $$$, you can make anything fast. it's still just 3.2 liters pushing out more than 100 hp per liter NA which is always very impressive. I raced a few and they were much more of headache than some LS1s I raced especially on the topend. Remember, Supras make over 1000 rwhp with Inline 3.0 liters so I would never say anything can't be modified.

I'm sure the MPG is more related to the .50 OD in 6th gear than the engine.

They also had their rev limitors lowered and that is detuning on a car that has to rev to make power. Maybe my wording was a bit misleading. Other BMW vehicles using the same bearings haven't had a problem and its cause they aren't trying to push the bottom end as hard as in the the M3. So power output is pushing those cars very hard from the factory. The M3 without heavy work will not respond to bolt ons, that is my point, it is very maxxed out as is. Now add a blower or turbo and thats different, im talking about simple bolt ons that make huge gains on cars like ls1s and the such. An ls1 has the topend advantage against a stock m3 so i don't know why they gave you more of a problem. Supras are completely different and really prove nothing, yes they are a forced induction hi tech 3.0 that is very strong and is not even close to maxed from the factory. Mpg for the smg auto m3 is still not quite up to the A4 GTO as well, so its more than the 6th gear ratio of the 6 speed.

 

[FastRegalWE2]

an obviously Ford biased articel. The GTO by no means is a performance "appearing" car, the Mustang looks great, on the outside but the inside is gaudy and just plain old looks like crap. Whereas the GTO interior is quite sporty "appearing" and not quite as gaudy. The GTO, to me, is the clear winner and a better car.
IMHO

Just my .02

 

[Marc87GN]

Originally posted by JDSfastGN
They also had their rev limitors lowered and that is detuning on a car that has to rev to make power. Maybe my wording was a bit misleading. Other BMW vehicles using the same bearings haven't had a problem and its cause they aren't trying to push the bottom end as hard as in the the M3. So power output is pushing those cars very hard from the factory. The M3 without heavy work will not respond to bolt ons, that is my point, it is very maxxed out as is. Now add a blower or turbo and thats different, im talking about simple bolt ons that make huge gains on cars like ls1s and the such. An ls1 has the topend advantage against a stock m3 so i don't know why they gave you more of a problem. Supras are completely different and really prove nothing, yes they are a forced induction hi tech 3.0 that is very strong and is not even close to maxed from the factory. Mpg for the smg auto m3 is still not quite up to the A4 GTO as well, so its more than the 6th gear ratio of the 6 speed.

Believe me, I'm not trying to sell an M3 to anyone, my point is, regardless of you how you feel, it's freakin fast off of the showroom floor for a 3.2 liter inline 6 cylinder. I have seen several Mustangs with built 347s and 351s running low 11s/high 10s NA so I know it's easier with more cubes.

Plenty of NA LS1s running 11s N/A, but a N/A 3.2 liter running with a NA 5.7 from the factory says alot.

The GTO will be fast, but I hardly doubt it is going to be flying off of the shelves. Ever since GM introduced the LT1 to the Camaro, they were getting killed in sales by the slower Mustangs. It takes more than just muscle to win over the public at large. The public spoke with the death of the Z28 and T/As in 02.

 

[BlownZ]

Is it me or do some people really believe they know more than everyone else on the planet???

 

[NEARING]

I guess the GTO would loose to the M3 in everything but power and price.

With a 20k price diff I don't see how they are in the same class?

Yes, I did a search.

55K for 333hp@7900rpm's.

I'm sure the will sell TONS of the new Mustangs, just like they sell TONS of honda civics.

I hope the 05's don't fly off the shelves so when I get back from the GULF next fall I can get one for under 30k.

I don't want a car that I can't get past the mail box without seeing one that looks just like mine. That's the main reason I got rid of both my ram air WS6 cars.

 

[NEARING]

Originally posted by BlownZ
Is it me or do some people really believe they know more than everyone else on the planet???

Let's all play nice He has a GN too...but I don't think he likes it.

 

[Marc87GN]

Originally posted by NEARING
I guess the GTO would loose to the M3 in everything but power and price.

With a 20k price diff I don't see how they are in the same class?

Yes, I did a search.

55K for 333hp@7900rpm's.

I'm sure the will sell TONS of the new Mustangs, just like they sell TONS of honda civics.

I hope the 05's don't fly off the shelves so when I get back from the GULF next fall I can get one for under 30k.

I don't want a car that I can't get past the mail box without seeing one that looks just like mine. That's the main reason I got rid of both my ram air WS6 cars.

I don't believe I was comparing the 2 cars because I agree, they are worlds apart. I was just stating that I was impressed by the fact that 3.2 liters NA making 333 hp is quite uncommon.


55K for a new M3? A few of the young techs I worked with must be doing well because they have them. I never priced one because I knew I would be wasting my time.


As far as my GN. I love the car even though it has certain quirks I have never seen before. I think it's one of the best looking cars ever designed IMO. There are few cars more menacing looking at night than a GN with black rims and tinted windows next to you. I'm looking forward to modding it and keeping it for a while.

 

[JDSfastGN]

Originally posted by Marc87GN


As far as my GN. I love the car even though it has certain quirks I have never seen before. I think it's one of the best looking cars ever designed IMO. There are few cars more menacing looking at night than a GN with black rims and tinted windows next to you. I'm looking forward to modding it and keeping it for a while.

It wouldn't be a proper GN experience without the quirks to go along with it BTW ? Do you have pics of the turboed GT at all? If they aren't hosted somewhere then don't worry about it i was just curious. My roomate has a 01 GT and for a while was thinking about turboing it (at one point he also had a vortech SQ waiting to install as well) but he decided against either it as its his only ride for now. Now hes building a 347 motor to go in a fox later on and i know the turbo option is something he is still considering. Good luck with the GN.

 

[GNVAIR]

Originally posted by JDSfastGN
The 04s in the hand of a typical GTO owner is a mid to high 13 second car, but with the weather cooled down there have been a a good group of 13.1-13.25s at 104+ on ls1gto.com. Hell MMFF got a 13.4 at 105 out of one a ways back. I have seen 2 test of the 05 in rags and one was a 13.0 at 108 and the other was close to the same at 109. With a well driven stick they are going to be high 12s at 111 or so about with your average 03-4 cobra that is bone stock. Both those trap speeds of the mags show the potential for 12s. But we'll have to see.

Thats incorrect since many guys with bone stock 03-04Cobra
have been trapping in the 110-115 mph range. Snorman on here is one of them. I was at Atco the night he went 12.60's@112 with his 04 Cobra on the stock radials and I believe he has has since gone 115 with a slightly slower et.

 

[JDSfastGN]

Originally posted by GNVAIR
Thats incorrect since many guys with bone stock 03-04Cobra
have been trapping in the 110-115 mph range. Snorman on here is one of them. I was at Atco the night he went 12.60's@112 with his 04 Cobra on the stock radials and I believe he has has since gone 115 with a slightly slower et.

hmm key word in my post was "average" mph of 111. In fact I have a friend that went 12.4 at 112.4 in a bone stock 03 cobra so there is no arguing they are quick. But AVERAGE mph is 108-111 or so. Sorry but they do not bone stock with out any changes run 115 or even 114. There may be a few freaks that made 114 on a really cold night or something but it is by no means the average or even close. They are capable of mid 12s off the show room, but they typically run 12.8-13.2 at 108-111 bone stock. Make a few small changes like a cold air kit and x/h pipe and 115 becomes doable but not until then. I don't really see where i was incorrect at all?

 

[NEARING]

My 2 tracks must have poopoo drivers because I have yet to see a STOCK one go in the 12's.

I know they have to power to do it, must be a hard car to master?

 

[NEARING]

Originally posted by Marc87GN


55K for a new M3? A few of the young techs I worked with must be doing well because they have them. I never priced one because I knew I would be wasting my time.

55k.... I was shocked my self! Maybe the dealers come off those prices a tad?

 

[GNVAIR]

Originally posted by JDSfastGN
hmm key word in my post was "average" mph of 111. In fact I have a friend that went 12.4 at 112.4 in a bone stock 03 cobra so there is no arguing they are quick. But AVERAGE mph is 108-111 or so. Sorry but they do not bone stock with out any changes run 115 or even 114. There may be a few freaks that made 114 on a really cold night or something but it is by no means the average or even close. They are capable of mid 12s off the show room, but they typically run 12.8-13.2 at 108-111 bone stock. Make a few small changes like a cold air kit and x/h pipe and 115 becomes doable but not until then. I don't really see where i was incorrect at all?

I dont know about where you are, but here in Jersey we have a lot more fast ones than average ones then because I cant remember seeing one go sub 110 mph. IMHO, they have the advantage because of the forced induction. A cheap pulley swap will put the Cobra ahead by a huge margin.
Btw, I was there at Atco when Sean (Snorman) ran the mph and his car is stock. But you can argue all you want, it will just fall on deaf ears.

 

[Marc87GN]

I have a GN now so I can't worry about the GTO and the Cobra. With the mods I plan to do to the GN over the winter, I will be doing some big game hunting in the spring. The heads go out tomorrow to VPE for the full works, the trans is being built with all blue plates and hard parts by me, I'm hunting for a good sized turbo and a host of other goodies.

 

[JDSfastGN]

Originally posted by GNVAIR
I dont know about where you are, but here in Jersey we have a lot more fast ones than average ones then because I cant remember seeing one go sub 110 mph. IMHO, they have the advantage because of the forced induction. A cheap pulley swap will put the Cobra ahead by a huge margin.
Btw, I was there at Atco when Sean (Snorman) ran the mph and his car is stock. But you can argue all you want, it will just fall on deaf ears.

i still don't see why you called me on my statement it still holds true, hell you can go to SVTperformance and ask what the typical ET and mph are for average drivers. We aren't talking which one is easier to mod, never said they weren't. A pulley, cat back, intake and chip and you are running bottom 11s on a good tire. Snorman running 115, must have been a fluke perfect night and lotsa tirespin to help that mph. (if you noticed i left the possibility open as his may be a freak) I bet he hasn't repeated it though. BTW i live in houston and Baytown (Houston raceway Park) is arguably the quickest track in the country and yes a lot go 110-113 but you obviously don't pay attention to the average drivers as there are many many who have not gone faster than 110 stock. Its a fact, visit SVTperformance

 

[JDSfastGN]

and just for a little proof check out the 12 sec club, i realize that this is not even 5% of the 03 owners on the board but it does show the big difference in times and mph via different cars and drivers http://www.svtperformance.com/12sec_list.html

 

[GNVAIR]

Originally posted by JDSfastGN
i still don't see why you called me on my statement it still holds true, hell you can go to SVTperformance and ask what the typical ET and mph are for average drivers. We aren't talking which one is easier to mod, never said they weren't. A pulley, cat back, intake and chip and you are running bottom 11s on a good tire. Snorman running 115, must have been a fluke perfect night and lotsa tirespin to help that mph. (if you noticed i left the possibility open as his may be a freak) I bet he hasn't repeated it though. BTW i live in houston and Baytown (Houston raceway Park) is arguably the quickest track in the country and yes a lot go 110-113 but you obviously don't pay attention to the average drivers as there are many many who have not gone faster than 110 stock. Its a fact, visit SVTperformance

Originally posted by JDSfastGN
and just for a little proof check out the 12 sec club, i realize that this is not even 5% of the 03 owners on the board but it does show the big difference in times and mph via different cars and drivers http://www.svtperformance.com/12sec_list.html

I called you on it because up here in Jersey almost all of the 03-04 Cobra I have seen run at Atco Raceway usually go 110+. We are at sea level if that means anything. But even your list shows that out of the 11 listed, only 2 were sub 110 mph. I havent spoken to Sean in about a month, so I am not sure if he backed the mph up. I do pay attention to the cars around me since I never know when I might have to race one. This post was just me correcting the fact that you tried to make the 03-04 Cobra sound like it was a lot slower than it was. I'm sure the new GTO will be pretty fast, but again, I give the nod to the car with forced induction.