Car still won't start!

[6pack]

I have only had the car 2 weeks and ready to sell! Got the cam sensor tool yesterday, set cam sensor. Have spark, have fuel at rail(I think). Wires are fine, new walbro 340 fuel pump hot wired. It will turn over forever just won't start. It is also making a hissing noise while turning over, sounds like it is coming from the tb, sounds like air backing out of the tb Please help! I also put the stock regulator back on but did not change anything. Also there are 3 lines to the fuel tank what is the smallest line for, I know there is a return, main, and third don't know. Fuel pressure with stock regulator is 36# with key on falls to 30# key off and loses pressure pretty quick. I also tested a injector plug and had pulse. I am lost and pissed, but I know you guys can help me get it going! Thanks!

 

[6pack]

plugs also looked good and wet. Another ? how much fuel needs to be in the tank for the pump to actually work right? Showing 3 gallons.

 

[FJM568]

Has the car ever run yet??? Or did you buy it not running???

If air is in fact coming back out of the TB, then it sounds like the timing chain is shot and jumped a tooth or more...Not good...Find out for sure what is going on...Pull the driver's side valve cover and see if the rocker arms on cyl #1 are both loose(can wiggle them a little bit) when you are at TDC and the line on the crankshaft balancer is lined up on 0*...If you have it lined up on 0* @ TDC and one or both valves are open, then you have a spun timing chain...Time to do the timing chain, if you already haven't...If you have done the timing chain, you did it wrong

Also, Are you sure you are getting spark??? What are your plugs gapped to??? Should be around .035...I have heard of someone getting a spec somewhere of .060, which is the gap for the carburated HEI 3.8L motors...Which spark plugs do you have in there???

Is it backfiring, or just air coming back through the throttle body???

Just some things to look for...Check the spark suggestion first...It's alot easier...If you are sure you are getting spark, then check for the valves closed on TDC thing next...

Hope this helps and let us know...

 

[6pack]

Thanks Jim...

Well when I bought the car it would crank and idle fine when you touched the gas peddle it would stall. I was told by several people that it was probably the fuel pump and since that is one of the first upgrades I was sure that would fix the car. When the car got here(had it transported to my house)me and the driver turned the key on and the main fuel line was sprying fuel. Well I replaced about 2 to 3 feet of the rubber lines(all 3) and no leaks. I had to splice them together with aluminum tube (3/8inch)which fit good in the main line(3/8) and the next larger line(return I think) and I cut a piece of brake line (1/4) to splice the small one. Well the brake line was to small and looked like it would work and did not leak after I got the clamps tightened down. That was the reason I asked what the three lines were for. I have spark, took #1 wire off the plug inserted screwdriver, put screwdriver next to metal and cranked engine and there was a spark from screwdriver to metal. I noticed yest. when I was manually turning the crank the cam sensor would seem to hang up(stop in 1 position) and then start turning. I don't see what could have went wrong, it was running when it left his house and it gets to mine and I replace some fuel line, fuel pump, regulator and it won't do s**t! Very disgusted at this point!

 

[6pack]

I also noticed when cranking it one time it looked as if it blew air, gas, or water from the pressure regulator area and it was the same noise(hiss, air) as the other times. It also does seem to back fire, sounds like a deep bellowing sound from the intake. Another noise I notice with the key on there was a strange noise coming from the fuel rail injectors sound like gas flowing but with bubbles in it. That is why I asked about the amount of fuel in the tank. Wish some of you guys were closer. It is really hard to explain the sounds over the computer. Plugs are gapped at .035 and the plugs are AC R44TS.

 

[FJM568]

Well, since you are getting spark, that means your crank sensor and cam sensor are both working, which tells the ecm when to fire the spark plug and when to open the injs...I would check what I had posted in the first big paragraph of my last post about the valves being both closed at TDC on #1...

It really sounds to me like the timing chain let go...

Try a compression test on the motor...That will also give some more clues as to what is going on in your motor...

 

[6pack]

Good news!

Both the vavles are closed at tdc on #1. I will try compression test tomorrow. Thanks

 

[Chuck Leeper]

No start

Know the frustration!! BTDT.
Did you have the cam sensor out of the engine? If so, how did you reinstall it?? [EXACT PROCEDURE, please] Just using a tool does not mean it's not in 180 out.
The bellowing sound could be the chain is totally gone.. Do all of the valves open/ close when spinning the engine over??[Unhook the ecm, remove all the plugs, and use the starter.]
Are you SURE you rehooked the lines as they should be at the tank when you replaced them w/ hose?? 1 is feed line, 1 is return and 1 is canister, AKA tank breather. If you have them crossed, you could be pulling a vac. on the tank... Does the tank appear to be "vapor locked" when you take the cap off?

How did you do the pump replacement??[EXACTLY, please]

Bubbles in the gas and weird noises at the reg suggests you have the pressure line feeding back thru the outlet side of the regulator???
Fuel filter in backwards??

step back, write down EVERYTHING you have done and or changed. Lets look at the list and go from there.
It'll take time to sort this out.....

 

[6pack]

ok guys....Chuck

Cam sensor was never out. Took cap off and lined up up per instructions with setting tool. Was set exactly like shown at tdc. All the vavles seemed to moved when I was manually cranking it, but to be sure I will check it with the starter tomorrow. I connected them at the tank before I strapped tank back in. I think this may be my problem, how can I check without having to drop tank again? Could I remove where they are spliced and see which way gas is flowing? Just went and removed gas cap and there were no noises such as a vaccum or blowing noise which you usually here when cap is removed. Pump install went like this....drained fuel(completely), removed tank, removed rubber lines, removed fuel pump and hanger, removed old fuel pump from hanger, put new pump on hanger exactly as old one was except left pulsator off(was told that was ok)as it would not make the connection(no rubber spacer). put new seal on tank, put new pump and hanger back in tank, put locking ring on and turn it till it was in position. connected new rubber lines, made my electrical connections with new hot wire harness, replaced tank. The noise coming from the fuel rail sure sounds like it has bubbles in it. Also when I removed the regulator the gas blew from the inj rail side none came from the line into it from the bottom when it was removed....first. Only other things I have done is install a fuel gauge on the rail, walbro 340 hotwired, adj fpr, adj wg done by previous owner and consequiently when his problems begin with the car! That's it. He left the bottom bolt out on the compressor side when installing the wg, why? I don't know! Where should the wg arm be? Thanks

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Observations

6PAK..
1. The cam sensor does not get set w/ the engine at TDC. It is set at 25* AFTER TDC. [Look in the archives for the details.]
2. The omission of the pulsator REQUIRES that it be replaced w/ a length of fuel injection hose and clamps. You also have to cut the necked down end off where the hanger pipe sticks down into the pulsator. Failure to do these steps results in: A. an in-tank leak and low fuel PSI. [Given you said you had 3 gallons in the tank, you may be sucking air there.]
3. Failure to cut off the necked down area of the inlet tube results in flow loss and diminished performance of the hi flo pump.
4. The largest line is the pressure line, the second is the canister line and the smallest is the return line.
Trace them from the engine back and see where they go...
On my 86 and 87, the pressure line comes across the x member at the axle, up the dr side thru the filter and thru the frame and up behind the alt. The return goes down the ft aross the ft x member and down the pass. side frame.The canister goes from the dr ft corner of the eng. comp. across the ft x member and runs along w/ the return line on the pass side to the connectors above the axle.

HTH,

Chuck

 

[crazygn]

ok this is my guess, fuel lines back wards, did you put clamps on the fuel line in the tank when you did the fuel pump. You said your getting spark so it has to be a fuel thing, if you were getting fuel it would at less back fire.

Can you hear the fuel pump running , if not check the fuse in the hot wire kit.

Check the cam sensor to make surer its not 180 out i think the window in the cam sensor should be looking at the drivers side of the car at top dead center, i think , its been a little time since ive done mine.

be sure you are getting spark, and check all the grounds on the motor good.

dont worry you will fix it, ive been thru it and every one else on here to,

 

[Buick From Hell]

How OLD is the gas?

 

[crazygn]

Thats what i forgot to write , dont belive that gas gauge go get some new gas and put in it and see what happens.

 

[FJM568]

Also, one way of checking the timing chain instead of looking at the valves opening and closing is to pull the cam sensor cap off and then rotate the motor by turning the crank with a socket and ratchet and seeing if the metal cup with the window on the cam sensor assembly rotates smoothly without any hesitations...

The cam sensor not only controls the timing of the spark but also the timing of when the inj fires...So if the sensor is set wrong, you could be firing the plug at the wrong time(maybe with a valve open, which would give the rush of air sound out of the throttle body...

BUT, I would still check if the fuel lines are installed properly and make sure of the cam sensor setting procedure... http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/ecmsensors/camsensor.html Take a piece of masking tape and cut it to 1.450"(about 1 7/16" long) and put it on your balancer lining up one end of the tape on the groove cut into the balancer and line up the tape so that if you rotate the motor clockwise the the other end of the tape is now lined up with the 0* mark on the timing tab on the cover...Now set your sensor with the setting tool and lock the sensor assembly down...That should be it...

Hope this helps...

 

[6pack]

Chuck, I'm sorry it was at 25' atdc. Did not cut the necked down part off of the line into the pulsator.
CrazyGN did put clamps on the hose in tank, fuel pump is whining, at tdc window on cam sensor points to just after 3 o'clock(pointing exactly as shown in directions that cam with the tool). Will get more gas today or tomorrow(gotta put a harmonic balancer on the blazer today)
BFH gas is only 2 weeks old put in after fuel pump install
Jim when I had the cap off the window rotated but seemed to hesitate when I was cranking it by hand when turned by starter it seemed fine. I am sure cam sensor is set correctly as I did just as you just posted! Thanks guys and keep the suggestions coming, will probably get back to work on it tomorrow. I too think it is a fuel related problem, not enough gas or reversed lines!?

 

[gary brooke]

crank sensor

if the crank sensor has been moved,that the ring on the balancer ( 3 slots) is .025 from crank sensor +,_ .003/.my 84 was down for a year because of it.

 

[6pack]

Thanks Gary....

but my crank sensor hasn't been touched since I've had car, which is what is making me mad only thing I done was fuel pump, hotwire, replaced some fuel lines and adj fpr and it won't even start now! BTW guys I went and had my son spin the starter and the valves were opening and closing, thats all I got to check today.

 

[cool 84]

You said the sensor seemed to hesitate when you turned it by hand. You might have missing teeth on the timing chain or on the cam sensor gear. I've seen it before. Might be time to pull the cam sensor out.

 

[6pack]

Is it suppose to turn constently as it is being cranked?

It seemed ok when turned with the starter.

 

[cool 84]

I might seem consistant when your turn it over with the starter just because it's going faster. If it hesitated while you're turning it by hand and you were turning it consistantly then something is wrong. Take the one bolt out and pull it out and check the teeth. Then try and put it in as close as possible to how it was and don't turn the motor over at all while it's out.

We had a friend's GN that wouldn't start and as a last resort we pulled the cam sensor out and found a bunch of broken teeth. It might not be your problem but it's so easy to check you might want to try it. Other than that I'm going with the cam jumped timing theory.