CNP/COP using factory ECU and FAST eDist?

[Blazer406]

See some old posts from Bruce (RIP).... to Craig.... but see very few other posts to suggest others have tried this conversion and got it to work.

I'm game to try it.... just looking for any recent info.....

I have contacted Jan (Buzzard) who has been piddling with Nick on a CNP setup.... but using an aftermarket ECU.....

I am interested in the feasability of doing with with the stock ECU.

 

[Blazer406]

eDIST?

Bump....

Anyone?

I have been unsuccessful in contacting Craig......

 

[turbofabricator]

Bob Bailey (Full Throttle) is currently working on something, but has been tight lipped. Jason (RJC) is also working on a dual coil pack configuration. Not much talk about these systems lately.
Bigstuff3 allows CNP/COP (coil near plug/coil on plug, for those that don't know) So I'm told. I have been told that XFI has the capabilities, too. The BS3 has somewhere around 6 amps of coil drive capabiltiy, which is HUGE! Kinda like having a TIG welder on each spark plug! If you have success with CNP/COP with the stock ECU, my hat's off to you. Good luck, and I hope you can do it. I looked into it years ago, but figured there were guys making 1200+hp on stock GM ignition, so I was way off needing it, thus, didn't spend much time on it.

 

[Blazer406]

A quote from the late Bruce in another thread..... regarding spark performance under boost using the LS COP/CNP setup using the FAST eDist.....

"I say this after only getting the Smart coil to run out of suds at a .1" gap at 22 PSI. that's a bunch of ignition, IMO"

.100 gap........ 22 psi.....

I want to try this setup.... if I can find an eDist.....

Here is an old thread:

Old COP/CNP Thread

For the life of me.... I can't figure out why more people didn't try this......???

Seems superior to the Dis4 setup IMHO.... as an ignition upgrade option......

I guess I should add... I know Bob and Bruce knew each other well and I believe Bob knew what Bruce did... and might even had helped him to an extent..... maybe Bob has taken some of the knowledge that was learned then.... and has plans to market this in some new product..... hope hope.......

 

[Quick Turbo V6]

I have seen the COP run with the stock ECU. Bob has a prototype made up. I think the project is on the back burner though.

Scott

 

[SloGN]

Blazer

A set of the mopar 300m coils can be wired into the stock coil pack with little to problem. The only thing is that with that the stock module driving those coils is you will still have a waste spark. The only diffrence is there is a coil for every cylinder.

 

[Just a Six??]

Bruce was 1 smart cookie! RIP Buick Brother!!

 

[bmackinnon]

Have you also searched the archives over at gnttype? Bruce was very active there as well, and I'm sure he posted alot of his research/results on that forum...

 

[Blazer406]

Have you also searched the archives over at gnttype? Bruce was very active there as well, and I'm sure he posted alot of his research/results on that forum...

No I haven't.... and yes.... I will..... thanks for the suggestion......

 

[xfirez51]

Blazer,

Not sure if you're still pursuing the COP solution. I joined TB because your ignition system is simialr to the one I have in my ZR-1. A couple of us are trying to convert from the LT-5 coil packs to LS-2s using the stock DIS module. We're running into an issue where motor will start but not stay running. Seems like ECM isn't picking up timing on EST line. Ignition module gets things going but then ECM is dropping the ball. Wondering if the GN guys may have experienced same with convertting to LS coils. Thanks for the hospitality in advance.

 

[Blazer406]

Blazer,

Not sure if you're still pursuing the COP solution. I joined TB because your ignition system is simialr to the one I have in my ZR-1. A couple of us are trying to convert from the LT-5 coil packs to LS-2s using the stock DIS module. We're running into an issue where motor will start but not stay running. Seems like ECM isn't picking up timing on EST line. Ignition module gets things going but then ECM is dropping the ball. Wondering if the GN guys may have experienced same with convertting to LS coils. Thanks for the hospitality in advance.

PM member TurboBob..... he has a working prototype setup and maight can help you with the circuitry.... there is also another member here that has a different COP setup done for his car...

Maybe one of these guys can help.

 

[xfirez51]

Thanks.

 

[TurboBob]

hi.

if you have a link to the schematics, I will take a look.

I make a device for running LS1 coils on LT1 cars, its called the LTCC.

I have also run LS1 coils on my GN.

LS1, LS2, LS-whatever coils are all basically the same.

Bob

 

[xfirez51]

hi.

if you have a link to the schematics, I will take a look.

I make a device for running LS1 coils on LT1 cars, its called the LTCC.

I have also run LS1 coils on my GN.

LS1, LS2, LS-whatever coils are all basically the same.

Bob

Bob,

I am familiar with the LTCC. Thanks for responding. Not sure which schematics you are referring to. However, I am currently trying to use LS coils by employing ignition module as sequencer. What's happening at this point is that motor starts but then dies. I suspect that ECM is not taking over timing from ignition module. I noted that the LTCC install on the LT motor does away with the ignition module. Please feel free to contact me via email at surrexi2@comcast.net. Look forward to hearing from you and thanks for your helpp in advance.

 

[TurboBob]

I am referring to the factory service manual drawings. Given its vintage, I am assuming that the signals are similar to the GN coil pack and module. Some of the later v6 stuff and early Northstar stuff had smarter modules to run the coils.

Also, what are you using to interface the new coils to the old module? There needs to be a signal inversion if its like the prototype COP I made for the GN.

Bob

 

[xfirez51]

I am referring to the factory service manual drawings. Given its vintage, I am assuming that the signals are similar to the GN coil pack and module. Some of the later v6 stuff and early Northstar stuff had smarter modules to run the coils.

Also, what are you using to interface the new coils to the old module? There needs to be a signal inversion if its like the prototype COP I made for the GN.

Bob

Bob,

I don't have schematics of the ignition module itself. One reason I reached out on this forum is because I suspected there was a similarity between the GN coil pack/module and the ZR-1. The module connector in fact, looks identical to the 14 pin I have. The wiring there is pretty standard stuff with
Bypass, Ref Hi, Ref Lo, EST, and Default lines. The crank sensor feeds the module for sequencing of the coil packs while a cam sensor signal goes to the ECM for synching the injectors with the ignition. Reluctor on ZR-1 crank is a 9slot cast onto middle of the crank.
Currently we have a triggering circuit for the LS coils. On the stock system, the ignition module grounds the correct coil pack in order to fire with a 12v.
We've inverted that and produce a 5v trigger for the LS coils albeit still in waste spark. I have a separate power and ground circuit for the LS coils, although originally I had thought of using the same power circuit as currently used by the stock coils. However, the stock circuit uses a 20a fuse for both the coils and injectors and the LS-2 coils proved to have a larger current draw than this circuit could sustain.
As I described earlier, I am able to start the motor but it quickly dies. My suspicion is that the EST signal is either not there or being lost. The "handoff" between the ECM and module isn't happening for some reason.
Thanks for your help.

 

[TurboBob]

I don't recognise the 'default' signal.

The GN has crank and cam signals that it uses to synchronize, and it passes these thru to the ECM.

It has an EST input and a Bypass input. The ECM uses the Bypass input to help detect an open or shorted EST.

I don't recognise the 'default' signal.

what is the pulse pattern on the crank?

Bob

 

[xfirez51]

I don't recognise the 'default' signal.

The GN has crank and cam signals that it uses to synchronize, and it passes these thru to the ECM.

It has an EST input and a Bypass input. The ECM uses the Bypass input to help detect an open or shorted EST.

I don't recognise the 'default' signal.

what is the pulse pattern on the crank?

Bob

Bob,

My mistake. Not Default but DIS Fault line. From the FSM "This circuit is a discrete output signal from DIS to ECM. Normally 6-7.4v with ign ON or engine running. Code 16 is logged if ECM detects the DIS fault line is open or shorted to ground for greater than 2 seconds with engine running"
Obviously motor is not running long enough to set any codes.

As for the pulse pattern on the crank, I hope this is what you were asking:

Crankwheel is made of 8 evenly spaced slots 45d apart and 1 slot spaced 8d from one of the other 8. Initial timing is set at 6BTDC so the odd slot is set at 43BTDC of cylinders 8 and 5. Module determines occurence of the odd pulse by comparing interval for 0 crossings. When the time is less than 1/4 of previous interval and less than 1/3 of following interval, then module assumes crank sensor is at odd slot. Module outputs signal to to ECM for determination of rpm and position. This is a 0-5v square wave. This reference signal is transitioned to a high state at the slot which is 51BTDC of each cylinder. It stays high until the slot which is 6BTDC when signal falls to low state. The repeated cycle goes high for 45d and then low for 45d.

 

[TurboBob]

my guess is that the module is unhappy that it doesn't have coils on it.

Can you force the module to stay in bypass mode and see if the engine will stay running? If you are burning chips, there may be a Min RPM for run mode that might do it.

Bob

 

[xfirez51]

my guess is that the module is unhappy that it doesn't have coils on it.

Can you force the module to stay in bypass mode and see if the engine will stay running? If you are burning chips, there may be a Min RPM for run mode that might do it.

Bob

Bob,

Interesting you would suspect that. The one time the motor ran for any length of time is when the coils were getting power from the ignition or when coil power was grounded thru triggering circuit. I have tried using power from ignition housing for one bank of coils, but no joy. With both banks drawing power, motor started altho that blew the fuse. I'll check cal to see if I can force bypass mode. Otherwise I would need to hack harness which I am not inclined to do. Thanks. Keep you posted.