Considering Stage project, need info

[Warp6]

OK guys, I need to be schooled on Stage tech. I have a pretty nice GN that I don't want to hack up. I have a fairly hot production engine with GN1's ported intake yada, yada…I have put quite a bit of money into this thing and to be honest, I'm kinda scared I'm going to break something…again. I was thinking, why couldn't I do some sort of Stage project and be sure I'm bulletproof. The only thing is, I don't know squat about Stage stuff. I've heard that if you want to use parts form my current engine that I would need an off-center setup. OK, but what the heck does that mean? I guess what I want to know is, what is the difference between Stage I and Stage II? What is the safe HP limit of each? Which setup would I be readily able to find parts for? If you were just getting started into the Stage process, which route would you choose and why? As far as a performance goal, let's just say that 10.50's @ 130mph is a nice starting point. Thanks in advance. Craig Taylor

 

[Butch]

 

[GTEATER]

Butch,

Not sure how your post is going to help with his questions at hand. I would also like to know the diffs between SI & SII...I understand that offcenter SI will allow the use of stock crank, intake and heads. SI has 2 bolt cast mains vs 4 bolt SII,8 bolt heads vs. 14 on SII and that SI has wet sump oil system vs dry on SII. Given the fact that you can make provisions to have 4 bolt main and 14 bolt head on SI...what if any hp advantage would there be to using SII block vs SI as far as strengh goes?

Before he needs to look at parts for sell, he as would I, would like to now the differences. Before he can be an educated consumer...someone needs to educate him.

No flame intended, but too often I see responses to unasked questions or worse, guesses and/or opinion where facts are needed.

Tried to search Stage...found informative post by KendallF but didn't address the strengh of the SI vs SII as it relates to hp.

Why not a off center stage I? Where is its limit if converted to 4 bolt main?

thanks again...and once again no flame to Butch I know you were offering help.

 

[S2V6RACER]

Originally posted by GTEATER


I understand that offcenter SI will allow the use of stock crank, intake and heads. SI has 2 bolt cast mains vs 4 bolt SII,8 bolt heads vs. 14 on SII and that SI has wet sump oil system vs dry on SII. Given the fact that you can make provisions to have 4 bolt main and 14 bolt head on SI...what if any hp advantage would there be to using SII block vs SI as far as strengh goes?

A stage II block will accept a stock crank and heads. The 2 bolt mains and the 8 bolt head configuration are the weak links in the stage I block. Yes, they can be modified and converted to a stage II configuration, but it is costly(to machine and install 4 bolt caps), and you will loose the internal pickup in the block, so why not start with a stage II anyways? All Stage II's are NOT dry sump blocks. There are off-centers and on-centers available with wet sump drilling. The pickup is in the front passenger side of block. I just believe if you can get a stage II, then spend the extra couple of bucks.

Why not a off center stage I? Where is its limit if converted to 4 bolt main?

If machined for 14 bolt heads, your limit would be where any other stage II 3.8 would take you. As far as actual HP figures, I do not know the proper answer, I'm sure someone else will chime in. I'd guess at least 1000hp.

 

[S2V6RACER]

Originally posted by Warp6
I've heard that if you want to use parts form my current engine that I would need an off-center setup.

Basically, you can still use everything except your rods, intake. Rods, intake can be modified for use with the on-center. There are a lot of other little modifications, that would take a full page to go over. Also, the risk of breakage using stock parts will spark a major debate. Use steel parts, of the best quality available for your budget, they will pull their value back if you decide to sell later.

Which setup would I be readily able to find parts for? If you were just getting started into the Stage process, which route would you choose and why? As far as a performance goal, let's just say that 10.50's @ 130mph is a nice starting point. Thanks in advance.


Parts(rods) seem more available for the On-center, but don't let that deter purchasing a off-center block. A stage I converted with 14 bolt head configuration with steel caps would be reliable, but what happens when you want to go faster? I recommend building it to be stronger than you plan on going. Things change, and your goals may also.
[/B]

I'm sure someone will chime in with more scientific backing on everything here, but this is pretty good general ruling on the issue.

Ted

 

[Chuck Leeper]

Stage 2 education

AGAIN, in the FWIW dept:
The detriment, as far as I can tell w/ the off ctr motor is the inherent lower strength of the con rods. This being caused by the beam location introducing a bending stress under the wrist pin. If the block is off ctr, then an"H" beam rod is recommended. I guess at this point, the best advice is to STAY away from the stock stuff!!! The plus side of the off ctr is you can use some production items such as intake, etc.

The s1 block is an expensive piece as to make it truly bulletpruf, takes alot of machine work.

There 2 [or more] versions of the S2 block, w/ the later having side bolted ft and rear mains. These blocks do not have internal oil pickup provisions and require external oil pump, etc. The stage 2 is available in on and off ctr versions.
IMO, the most economical way to get to a stage 2 engine is to use a ASA 9:1 engine and go from there, even tho the added expense is going to be incurred for the oil system and intake, etc. The heads are the big chambers and are desireable for those running the complete stage system. [The Busch heads are small chamber and that makes it difficult to get the comp. down for a turbo application.] Then you can fight the Champ head war!!!

I have a LIMITED number of STAGE 2 prep manuals written by Dave Emanuel. I'll share them w/ anyone who wants 1 or 2 for $5.00 a copy to cover the Priority mail costs.
Send me your addy and a check or MO and I'll mail out what I have until I run out or the interest dies.

1995 Plantation RD. SW.
lawrenceville, GA. 30044

 

[Warp6]

Butch??

I guess I missed something there???

 

[GNSCOTT]

Craig. Just wondering if you've checked out the topic of what it costs to build a stage 2? I was in the same predicament as you and deceided to go stage 2. You have to remember if its breakage you want to avoid @ 10.50 the block usually isn't the weak link so i would avoid using any stock internals in a stage motor. I found a complete Busch stage 2 on center, and was able to use the block, crank, heads, rods. I got lucky with the heads and was able to keep the 6.5 rods and i got it for $2800. I just went through the total costs for the motor alone and that alone will total around 12 grand. Luckily i had a big enough turbo (80mm) (2k) and i already had the felpro (2k), I bought a turbo 400 tranny (1k used) and am looking for a 9" rear (approx. $1500 used). I'm going with a wolfe racing suspension (1k) 13" slicks and rims ($800) fuel cell and fuel system braided lines twin pumps ($1500) 10 pt cage ($1500). That's just some of the stuff i have to do to ensure the safest possible combo for me, my car, and my 12k motor.

 

[S2V6RACER]

Originally posted by GNSCOTT
fuel cell and fuel system braided lines twin pumps ($1500)

Why not run a Weldon pump?

 

[GNSCOTT]

Why not run a Weldon pump?






That's an easy one to answer. Right now i have 1- 80mm turbo, and i might wanna add another