Couple Q's on tuning issues with alchy

[KevinB]

This is a new ball game for me. Been working on a car that I have installed pretty extensive mods (scanmaster, ported irons, cam, ported intake, ATR headers, 67 turbo, 79# injectors, trans and converter and everything in between.) Just installed a Alky Control system (dual nozzle) and a matching TT chip. The car runs great on 20-22 psi on 110 octane with stock o2 readings in the 780 range (I know a wb would be better, but we have not installed one yet.)

As soon as you turn the alchy on, the car loads up very bad and falls on it's butt. That is even with the gain knob set on 1. The car is no slouch either....went 93 mph in the 1/8th on low boost (no alchy) and lots of traction issues (can't roll into the throttle until after the 60'.) The car should be a mid 10 second car with little effort with this alky kit running right imo.

What am I doing wrong? Turn the fuel down in the chip? Eliminate one of the nozzles? Add timing?

 

[TURBO 6]

My advice is to run a single nozzle until you need the second. It's easy to tune with one nozzle. Double the volume and it's another ballgame. It's easier to to tune with WB correction, that way as the alky comes in the fuel is pulled out.

 

[Razor]

Turnoff the double pumper, get rid of one of the nozzles, put pump gas in the tank, set the boost to 21-22 PSI and run the car with the alcohol.

Make the car simple. Complicate it as the need arises. KISS

 

[muzz]

I agree with razor.I experimented with 110 and it ran worse. Sputtered all the way down the track.I turned off my double pumper too.Runs way better with 93 and alky.I only have one nozzle but your car has alot more mods.

 

[KevinB]

Turnoff the double pumper, get rid of one of the nozzles, put pump gas in the tank, set the boost to 21-22 PSI and run the car with the alcohol.

Make the car simple. Complicate it as the need arises. KISS

Thanks for the phone call. Awesome customer support!

 

[Bobtempest]

So Race Gas and Alky is all of a sudden not a good thing?

Hmmmm......

Would you mind explaining this a little.

Thanks,
Rob Hinson

 

[KevinB]

The car is not here anymore, owner took it home. I had him disconnect one of the nozzles and make a few passes.

This is what we we discovered (talking to him over the phone):

-21psi, gain knob on 3, 93 octane. Car ran fine but o2's were 710-720ish. No knock per scanmaster.

Turned up the gain knob to 5 and the car cut out.


-21 psi again, gain knob on 3, 93 octane. This time we added about 4% fuel on the TT chip overall (selection #1).

This time the o2's never went above 690. I think that is weird. No knock recorded.

We turned the knob on the controller to 5 and it cut out bad.


I'm thinking the o2 sensor may have went bad on us. It's hard to do this over the phone...we plan on meeting up again and going to the track or dyno.

 

[Razor]

That car on a stock MAF or translator? If its on a translator it may be picking up interference from the alky system.

This is tuning 101 on an alky kit.

1) make sure the BL numbers are fine on the scanmaster. 128+-10, +-5 would be better.
2) make sure the kit activates at 7 PSI
3) make sure LED goes green quickly. Typically at 10-12 PSI.
4) Set and forget the blue alky knob on 6. Dont bring it down to 3. This makes the system lazy.
5) when the kit activates at 7 PSI make sure the car responds cleanly.. no bucking, surging, etc. from 7 to 15 PSI. If the car experiences surging.. you need to hotwire the translator or alky system.
6) when you do your first run make sure the O2's go into the low-mid 800's and you dont see any knock.

Based on the crashing O2's, problems with the gain, you have a bad O2 sensor, and may have interference issues. Ditch the race gas, unless its cut down with 93. Dont buy a Bosch O2 sensor. Denso or purplewire AC Delco AFS20.

Too much attention is sometimes paid to beating on the engine that the bottom end stuff is ignored. Like drivability, off idle, and scantool numbers.

If I saw my O2's crash in to the anything under 750 i'd be lifting faster than my hands on a fire. To see low numbers like 690-710's is brutal. Meaning brutal to let it go that far low on the numbers.

Uncomplicate the car.. you'll see how fast it takes up on the alky.

One more dumb note.. make sure its activating at 7 PSI. I've seen similar problems with the kits when cars are on the 2 bar not 3 bar.

 

[Razor]

So Race Gas and Alky is all of a sudden not a good thing?

Hmmmm......

Would you mind explaining this a little.

Thanks,
Rob Hinson

He's trying to figure a car out. Too much octane can lead to drivability problems.. like not having enough timing. Pump gas is easier to figure out.

Once the car is figured out, no probs with the race gas.

 

[KevinB]

The car does have a maf trans on it. If it is an interference issue, how is this issue fixed?

I will have him put a new o2 in it. The car had C16 ran through it so my guess is that the sensor is trashed.

The cars drivability is great. All numbers regarding idle and cruise are right on.

I will probably have the car back in my hands next week so the owner and myself can get it to the track.

 

[Razor]

The car does have a maf trans on it. If it is an interference issue, how is this issue fixed?

.

First you need to see if it has the surging issue with the alcohol at low boost. like part pedal it. If so call me.

 

[KevinB]

First you need to see if it has the surging issue with the alcohol at low boost. like part pedal it. If so call me.

Will do! It will be like a week or so until I get the car back in my possession. As far as I can remember, part throttle is fine.

 

[KevinB]

At the track now.

as soon as the car hits 15 psi it falls on its butt. Just changed coil pack to see if it makes a difference. I doubt it though bc the car went over 20 psi with no issue when it had race gas.


Details of last run:

760 02s
25 psi
No knock
Alchy knob at 6
One nozzle
Double pumper disconnected
93 octane
Tt chip at stock settings.

I'll post details after this run. I'm in the staging lanes now.

 

[Razor]

O2's should be a tad higher. You may need more fuel thrown at it.

If it knocks, add alcohol. Use fuel to trim the air fuel.

 

[jasjamz]

Well kevin.... any updates??

 

[KevinB]

Got it figured out:biggrin:

Before the last pass, I swapped the 02 and plugs.

Car pulled to 6K no problem

Ended up with a 11.6 @ 116.8 with a 1.7 60'. I promised the owner a 120 mph car so we are going back tomorrow to the other local track and I'm going to mess with the tune. The 26" tall tires may hurt the mph a little I'm afraid though.

Plans are to turn up the boost, add a little fuel and timing and work on the 60 foot. I'm pretty sure I can get at least another 5 mph out of it tomorrow. I'll give the updates Sat night.

Thanks to all that helped!!!

I'm starting to like this alchy stuff. I want to try it out on my car next year

 

[jasjamz]

Razor has made it a great upgrade for any turbo buick! Good luck today! How much boost was on it yesterday?

 

[Razor]

Got it figured out:biggrin:

Before the last pass, I swapped the 02 and plugs.

Car pulled to 6K no problem

Ended up with a 11.6 @ 116.8 with a 1.7 60'. I promised the owner a 120 mph car so we are going back tomorrow to the other local track and I'm going to mess with the tune. The 26" tall tires may hurt the mph a little I'm afraid though.

Plans are to turn up the boost, add a little fuel and timing and work on the 60 foot. I'm pretty sure I can get at least another 5 mph out of it tomorrow. I'll give the updates Sat night.

Thanks to all that helped!!!

I'm starting to like this alchy stuff. I want to try it out on my car next year

Watch the 1/8 MPH. Car should pickup 24-25 on the back end. So your target should be 95/96 in the 1/8.

Glad its starting to come together.

 

[KevinB]

Well....

It is back running like it was. Seems to foul plugs out very quick. I thinking there may be an issue with the chip.

In the pits, the car will not go over 4000-4500 on the brake. Change the plugs and it will go to whatever you want. Go through the burnout process, launch and all it does the same thing. Get back to the pits and the plugs are pretty black and will not rev.

Last night when it finally ran good, it was 60 degrees out (was 80+ when we started and car ran bad....sun went down and the car ran good. Today it was 80+ degrees and car ran like poop.

 

[Eric Stage I]

Kevin,
Shoot me an email with your address and lets try a different chip. Maybe this one has too much fuel for what you're trying to do. You could try backing the WOT fuel way down as a test to see the result (be careful, watch for knock).

Eric