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Do We Owe Our TR's To G. Banks?

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I saw that Banks interview a few months ago also. When he said that about the Grand National, I thought "WHATT????? What the heck did he say??? What a bunch of BS!!!!" Now don't get me wrong, I have tremendous respect for Mr. Banks and his skills and knowledge - HOWEVER....he either mispoke and meant to say something else (like maybe the Grand National was *his* inspiration!) or he's so full of himself he actually want's people to believe *he* came up with the concept of turbo charging a street car, yeah right! "Um...hello....Mr. Banks....Buick was putting turbo-chargers on production cars back in the SIXTIES!!!!!!!"

If you don't know what I'm talking about, read this....

Olds FAQ -- Jetfire

:biggrin:
 
I saw that Banks interview a few months ago also. When he said that about the Grand National, I thought "WHATT????? What the heck did he say??? What a bunch of BS!!!!" Now don't get me wrong, I have tremendous respect for Mr. Banks and his skills and knowledge - HOWEVER....he either mispoke and meant to say something else (like maybe the Grand National was *his* inspiration!) or he's so full of himself he actually want's people to believe *he* came up with the concept of turbo charging a street car, yeah right! "Um...hello....Mr. Banks....Buick was putting turbo-chargers on production cars back in the SIXTIES!!!!!!!"

If you don't know what I'm talking about, read this....

Olds FAQ -- Jetfire

:biggrin:

I thought the same thing...What is he saying ??? Regals as know today were turbocharged since 197's . ????? Thumbs up for the diesel truck though !!! :D
 
Banks off the shelf diesel parts are high priced garbage.Alot more power to be had for alot cheaper.
 
I would have to agree with the "Molly" statement too. I have his autograph on the dash in the Vetters car:biggrin:
 
I think we owe it to Molly.

I believe "Molly" was responsible for the *appearance* of the turbo Regals(and the Power 6 logo). I don't believe he had anything to do with the development of the drivetrain. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about that. :cool:

Rob
 
Here is my understanding on the topic. I have discussed many points of Buick history directly with Molly, Mike Doble (head of concept vehicles and technology for Buick back then and recognized father of the GNX) and Ron Yuille (head of the Buick turbo group at the time). Molly was asked to design something that would exciting in 1983, something that would get the executives interested. Hence he made the red concept/"prototype" showcar he showed the executives. The wheels on that car came from Junior Johnsons racecar at the time. My understanding is that Molly wasn't involved with the drivetrain at all. I can't say anything about Mike Doble's involvement, but I doubt he had a hand in the direct design. Although I am sure there isn't one single person that can be creditted for the development of the 86/87 intercooled motor, I think the person to focus on for the engine design was Ron Yuille, head of Buick's turbo group/engine development at the time. I can't remember the extent of his involvement was for the development of the 84/85 hot air engines, but I know he was there.

That is everything I know about it.
 
Gale Banks

He never said he was the Godfather of the GN. He was approached by those at Buick to help in building a twin turbo Indy Pacecar. Believe they went with Buick's Rivy as the Regal would look just like another Bucsch GrandNational racecar that was successful in the early 80's. Buick didn't want Bank's and the Team to just paint up and turbocharge and put decals that said Indy Pacecar on a plain old regal. Buick had the Indy series,Bucsh series they were quite involved in racing.

So they took their Luxury 2dhtp car which would have more appeal at least for leading Indy that particular Sunday,so they went with a twin turbocharged Riviera, think BANKS and the gang got well over 400hp, through this endeavor and who knows exactly who but the idea of a turbocharged production musclecar was given birth.

Buick was so involved in all types of racin during the early 80's and basically in the late 80's suddenly pulled out almost all Factory Sponsership and as we all know the LAST BUICK HOORAY was the GNX. It's almost Ironic that Big Cooperate sponserships were Changing as well . From Bucsh GrandNational Series to Winston Cup . Nascar must of sold the copyright name cheap to Buick and that the name for this newly birthed idea of a turbocharged production MUSCLE car would be named GRAND NATIONAL. Buick had the INSIGHT to get the GN name and to put it on their last REAL MUSCLECAR.

Think the one Book that we all own has this TT Indy Pacecar in it if I remember it's been years since I cracked it open. More then coming up with the idea of a turbocharged car was the name given it. The regal was definately successfull in the Busch series but they all ran sbcmotors, I'm sure this was an area that burned Buick. The Regal had one of the lowest drag coef. of the cars running back in the day.

So why not use that low coefficient Regal and throw in one of those lil V6 torque monsters that had proven themselves in INDY,GTA,racing, etc,etc. They got 400 ponies out of that pathetic Riviera, so why not TurboCharge an LC2 and make the SBC they had to run in the Busch GN series look anemic in the torque dept.. Lets paint it black have Mclaren and asc do some tweaking give it a sinister name like GNX and we at Buick will have a MUSCLECAR that will whip anything they can do with the SBC/Vette. Think this was an internal battle and Buick served GM Notice with a BOOSTED V6. The top dogs/brass at GM got the finger from Buick in the way of the Grand National/GNX. That's my story and I'm stickin to it!

Banks only holds 4 records, Fastest gasoline pickup a Syclone that went 210 at Bonneville, Fastest passenger car TT Firebird forgot the mph, Fastest TTDiesel pickup just started playin with diesels but it went 222mph,then with another turbocharged streamliner, all Bonneville runs, he's been playin with turbos longer then some of us have been alive.
 
ChavoLC2,

I agree with most of what you posted but I have to disagree with the following...

"So they took their Luxury 2dhtp car which would have more appeal at least for leading Indy that particular Sunday,so they went with a twin turbocharged Riviera, think BANKS and the gang got well over 400hp, through this endeavor and who knows exactly who but the idea of a turbocharged production musclecar was given birth."

I don't believe Banks and his crew can be credited with "birthing" the idea of a turbocharged production musclecar since Buick produced the turbocharged "Jetfire" engine back in 1962 (yes, that's 'sixty-two). Check out the link I posted previously. The "Jetfire" engine was a 215 cubic inch BUICK engine with a Garrett T03 turbocharger. Everything I've read on this subject indicates it was not offered in anything but an Oldsmobile, but it was the Buick aluminum 215 cu.in. V8.

There is no doubt in my mind that Mr. Banks is a smart guy that has done some incredible things with forced induction, but I took exception to his statment on the American Musclecar TV show when he said his TT '82 Pontiac was the inspiration for the Grand National. It's very difficult to accept that as fact if you read up on Buick's history of turbocharging.

:cool:
 
That was my thoughts as well. When did the first TR come out?:cool:
 
I guess everybody has forgotten what engined powered the 76 Indy Pace Car. BTW the Olds Jetfire was a 215CID OLDSMOBILE V-8. Minor differences between the Buick and Olds versions. One being the cylinder heads. Nothing interchanges between the two with maybe the exception of the crank and rods. You could probally find that twin turbo car in the pages of HOTROD. IIRC they did a hop up on a 1981 Regal Sport Coupe and that TT car was a sidebar story. For some reason I'm thinking that it was a SBC that had the twin turbos.Buick had turbo'd the V-6 long before Banks started screwing around with them. Forget Molly. The real inspiration for the GN was the movie "Mad Max"
 
Banks

We built the first turbocharged, EFI engine in the world in the back of a speed shop in San Gabriel, California,” says Banks. By now, Gale Banks Racing Engines had become Gale Banks Engineering.

Then Buick came calling. They were developing a turbo V6 for an Indy pace car in ‘78, and having big problems. “It was based on the old 1950s Buick V6 design, but unlike Volvo, they were using a carburetor,” says Banks. “It was down on power and running so hot you could drive at night without headlights. We helped them figure it out, and they had an Indy pace car.”

Buick returned, working with Banks to build what would become the father of the Buick Grand National - a Banks twin-turbo 437 bhp Regal. As a bonus, he got a pre-production version of GM’s new 6.2 liter diesel in 1980, and designed a home-install turbo kit for it. It was a huge success, and diesel performance kits remain the nucleus of his business


Granted Buick was working with turbos/carbs , but here's a guy that was already ahead of GM working with Turbos and EFI engines....
 
I guess everybody has forgotten what engined powered the 76 Indy Pace Car. BTW the Olds Jetfire was a 215CID OLDSMOBILE V-8. Minor differences between the Buick and Olds versions. One being the cylinder heads. Nothing interchanges between the two with maybe the exception of the crank and rods. You could probally find that twin turbo car in the pages of HOTROD. IIRC they did a hop up on a 1981 Regal Sport Coupe and that TT car was a sidebar story. For some reason I'm thinking that it was a SBC that had the twin turbos.Buick had turbo'd the V-6 long before Banks started screwing around with them. Forget Molly. The real inspiration for the GN was the movie "Mad Max"

Turbo fish your right I don't know why I thought it was a Rivy when it was a 81 regal Sport Coupe. Remember reading it years ago and it probably was in HOTROD. Thanks....
 
Back in the early 70's there was a boy scout project to turbo the 3.8 in Flint,
they could not get the 3.8 to run right, they got Buick engineers involved, and the engineers at the time got Gale Banks involved in this project, and as they say the rest is history for the 3.8 and turbo charging.

Ron
 
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