DO you think GN's are going

[strikeeagle]

There have been some really excellent points made in this thread. I, for one, don't believe TRs will ever command the $$$ of the late 60s/early 70s musclecars:

1. Still a fair number of very low miles examples owned by folks who would otherwise be collecting butterflies. This inventory is not likely to be depleted anytime soon.

2. The 80's sucked large, so who wants to remember them?

3. Turbo V6s have limited appeal. They really are an odd, niche car. For example, don't expect HEMI collectors to jump into TRs anytime soon.

So, my advice is, drive 'em and enjoy 'em. Don't put them in a mayonnaise jar, and don't gut them for racing. Drive them and enjoy them - which is the essence of their appeal anyway.

 

[ghall]

Originally posted by TurboDave
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Who would have thought that the first gen camaro's would be so valuable, and what makes them so??? It's certainly not due to limited numbers. Chevy made them by the millions!!! and there are still 10's of thousands of them around, but they're still fetching high $$$ compared to their orignal cost (which was relatively low even for their time).

Unless they are very low mileage survivors that have been maintained properly---what makes a 1st gen camaro worth $30K is usually a $40K restoration

Geoff

 

[mark b]

One difference I found between the 60's cars and the TR's...

In the 60's there was a myriad of options available on a car, especially the engines. So these were "family cars" or starter cars with small v8's or even 6's. The cars were highly visable because many demographic segments of the public owned the same car...just different options. Having big motor options made the performance people take note. So there was a big cross-over between the "base" family car and the muscle car. Maybe John Q Public had to buy the small V8 but wanted the 396 or 427. So when he/she made more money, they went back after the car "they always wanted".

I have never met a person that bought a base Regal and really wanted a TR/GN/GNX. I know it happened, but people that knew about these cars went directly after them. That "crossover" never happened..... and never will IMHO.

That's why I agree with Dave: you can't create a classic, or maybe put another way, you can't create demand.

 

[motorhead]

The only way these cars are going to maintain an interest is through the people who were old enough to have seen them in action 15+years ago and their children.

I didn’t have a flipping clue what a Turbo Buick was until ~10 years ago (I am 24… do the math). And I still didn’t have an appreciation for them until about 5 years ago.
My Dad bought one, we fixed it up, & I got hooked.

For the most part, the only people I know my age who are buying these cars (G-bodies) are people who’s parents owned & appreciated them in the 80s. Quite frankly, they (Turbo Regals) are over priced now (see: eBay comment) and abused. And with the current Sport Compact trends, it is highly unlikely that in 10-20-30 years you are going to find anywhere near the demand the Muscle Cars are showing. We can afford those either. Hell, I had to build my ’87 MCSS into a proverbial Muscle Car just to get the essence of a time I never knew, just like the 80s.

Collectors can keep the pretty ones that rust from the inside out, I’ll drive and race and gut mine. They are just cars after all.

 

[Brian Mc]

1. What you guys have been saying about market flooding: I think that this board just about summarizes all low mile TR's in existence for sale. In other words if you see 17 low mile tr's for sale it means there are probably 17 Low mile Tr's for sale in the US and Canada. If that's market flooding, 17 cars in the whole country.

2. About value compared to muscle cars: we are going to need a boost like (dare i say) a movie like The Fast and the Furious with a lot of cool sound effects. of course the cars in that movie were all effects when our cars make all the cool noises and haul already. Something where everyone in the country can say "That is a neat car" like they did with the TT supra. You'll notice Mopar stuff just took a huge leap in price,although it's always been high.
Nash Bridges and TFATF didn't hurt. There was also the 69 SS convertible in Charlies Angels. You all probably think I'm stupid for thinking that these movies affect car values, but whatever.

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Originally posted by strikeeagle
There have been some really excellent points made in this thread. I, for one, don't believe TRs will ever command the $$$ of the late 60s/early 70s musclecars:

1. Still a fair number of very low miles examples owned by folks who would otherwise be collecting butterflies. This inventory is not likely to be depleted anytime soon.

2. The 80's sucked large, so who wants to remember them?

3. Turbo V6s have limited appeal. They really are an odd, niche car. For example, don't expect HEMI collectors to jump into TRs anytime soon.

So, my advice is, drive 'em and enjoy 'em. Don't put them in a mayonnaise jar, and don't gut them for racing. Drive them and enjoy them - which is the essence of their appeal anyway.

Very good points. I keep saying that if you love these cars and love racing that you should own 2. J One to drive on the street and one to race. Yeah expensive but save your pennies and do it!

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Originally posted by ghall
Unless they are very low mileage survivors that have been maintained properly---what makes a 1st gen camaro worth $30K is usually a $40K restoration

Geoff

Not only the restoration but also the options. Yes there were a quarter of a million first gen Camaro's built but when you start talking about convertible optioned cars with a big block or the Z/28 option then the numbers are much smaller (a few thousand build). First gen Camaro's with a 327 or 250 engine and in perfect 100% restored shape are only going to fetch maybe 12-13K. Mines a fairly well optioned car, 100% frame off restoration and I can probably only get about 17K because it's not a convertible. Convertible would easily push my car well over the 20K mark but it's a hard top cause at 16 years old that's all I could afford. I probably put about 14-15K in restoring it so no money made. Naturally not counting the years it took to complete in my garage and what I could have done with that money elsewhere...

I tell people all the time that are considering restoring a car and thinking they are going to make a mint. Unless the car is ultra race and you literally got a steal on it, you'll be happy to break even. If I had to do it again I would absolutely buy one already done. Damn, took me close to 12 years to complete my Camaro (I was in college for 4 years during that time), I could have bought it complete sooner and have enjoyed the car for that 12 years vs. breaking my knuckles!!

Bottom line, if you are going to restore a car, restore it cause you love it, not to make money (cause you probably won’t make as much as you think)…

 

[dhauser]

ATTABOY, StevieWevie!

I process information about cars from all kinds of different sources, but one of the most "real" sources to me is the local car cruises. I attend them as often as I can, with different cars. But my personal GN always garners a lot of attention, from a very wide span of people. Just last weekend, I parked the 17k mile show-quality 86 GN in a small lot where some other cars were sitting for sale, and two kids no older than 18 were flipping out over my car! Not only that, but one of them knew a lot about the car, like it's factory hp rating, and the fact they were purposely underrated to keep the Corvette folks happy. That about blew me away!

So, in addition to people who were "coming of age" at the time these cars were sold new, there are plenty of people, both older and younger, who follow these cars. I know as many people locally who are 50+ who own these cars, as people younger than that.

Not to mention the fact these cars represent a compromise of form and function that is not a compromise at all, and hardly ANY car can claim that.

 

[BJM]

No one has mentioned inflation. TurboDave is lamenting the sale of his Nova. I think he did the right thing by selling it. $2800 in 1969 is $13900 in 2002. During that 33 years you had to store the car, repair the car, restore the car, etc. I am excluding normal operating expenses. There is no way a person makes money off a car like that. The guys who make money are the ones who take advantage of short term trends like the early 90's when the Japanese economy was allowing them to buy American Muscle cars at ridiculous prices. Prices went up huge amounts in a short time frame and then came back down. Even for the highest strata of muscle cars like Hemi powered all original cars the owner pays a lot to store them, insure them, and has to trailer them because driving them ruins them.

I sell my cars when my overall investment gets to a certain point and the car's value just won't cover it anymore. If the car is stolen how much will insurance give me back (my car is appraised). When the difference gets too big I start again.

Let's face it, most of us will never make a penny selling a car when everything it tallied up.

 

[xrunner123]

Hold on. You guys are comparing 1960 and 1970 cars with an 87. There is a 20 year gap that alot can happen. I see that Chevelles are picking up 15-20K. Base price was 3000 or so and with the 454 it about $4500. So that is roughly 3-4 times the value.

Back in 87 I was looking into getting one of these but they were considered "cheap" (in price too- just a few grand) since there were so many. People made fun of the guys that had them. Now look at them.

Just watch and you will see what will happen to the GN prices in 20 yrs. And don't forget that money appreciates, so todays dollar will be worth more in 20yrs.

 

[88 CuttyClassic]

as with everything, the next generation is gonna be largely influenced by their parents. My dad had mopars and of course he instilled that into me. i broke away from that cause of the price and have became the G-body guy of the family. Now my dad is into corvettes and at 23 corvettes are still out of my range so the cheapest i can do performance wise it to try and get a TR. In the early 80's you could get almost any 70's muscle car dirt cheap, now you are seeing that same trend with 5.0's, iroc z's and TR's but for a different reason. people didn't sell off their muscle cars cause the didn't realize potential. It was the gas prices. I don't think the two situations are comparable. The cars aren't getting cheaper cause of fuel prices cause thats not a big issue with Fuel injection cars.

 

[salvageV6]

Cars for investment are like stocks. You buy them cheap and sell them for tons of money.

Limbo stage is when you should be buying and storing ASSuming they are going to be going up in value. Your assumption not necessarily mine.

I prefer to buy in the limbo stage because for $10K-$18K you can't beat the price on a nearly new and WAY COOL car that you can drive and show, and be safe in.

I prefer to end my investment with $50 from the junk man when there is nothing left but rusty steele.

 

[TurboJunky]

There's a lot of apples - oranges comparisons here and have seen this argument many times. Here's some interesting things I've read so far.

Of 50,000 + cars made it was stated that there's been 17 (total) ultra-very low mile Turbo Regals for sale. My definition of a very low mile, 17 year old car car is 2,000 or under, so to me "many have low miles" isn't quite on the mark.

INFLATION has been mentioned once. A $4500 car in 1970 is how much in today's $? We'll see how much a concourse low mile GN is worth 34 years from 1987. Is $72,000 (4x sticker price) out of the question?...I think not...and it's due to appreciation AND inflation. Can't compare today's $ with $ 34 years from now.

If there are many low mile Turbo Regals still out there I'd be interested in buying a 1987 Turbo Regal Limited. Give me a shout if you have a low mile one for sale..... Considering there's a huge supply of low mile (original) Turbo Regals around, why am I only getting these results?

 

[Red Regal T]

Originally posted by Red Regal T
In ten years? Might be able to get as much for a GN, as an 87 Monte with a 305, but probably not.

Hey, I got a better one. 89 Camaro RS 350 (nice cars )sells for more that a nicer condition GN.

Great to have these dreams for the future. Can't come true though, because Grand Nationals and TTypes don't have a bowtie on their hood. You guys are talking about the classic car market and using chevies as examples. That's good, because unfortunately, chevys ARE the classic car market. While 10,000 chevelle, camaro and monte carlo sellers actually sell their cars, for TOO MUCH MONEY I might add, 10,000 classic Buick sellers are waiting for a call. Very sad.

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Originally posted by Red Regal T
Hey, I got a better one. 89 Camaro RS 350 (nice cars )sells for more that a nicer condition GN.

Great to have these dreams for the future. Can't come true though, because Grand Nationals and TTypes don't have a bowtie on their hood. You guys are talking about the classic car market and using chevies as examples. That's good, because unfortunately, chevys ARE the classic car market. While 10,000 chevelle, camaro and monte carlo sellers actually sell their cars, for TOO MUCH MONEY I might add, 10,000 classic Buick sellers are waiting for a call. Very sad.

Use a 1970 GS 455 as an example. The value of these cars have increased many times and do not have a bow tie on them.

I do think that after 34 years a GN will be worth more than an 87 Monte SS or a 90 something Impala SS but that's just me. Tough call when comparing to a same era Camaro IROC even though it was a POS. The Camaro IROC will probably be worth more in 34 years because there will be very few IROC's still running...

 

[BlackBandit]

Hemi Cuda's don't have any bow tie's on em'.

 

[Red Regal T]

Originally posted by TurboDiverArt
Use a 1970 GS 455 as an example. The value of these cars have increased many times and do not have a bow tie on them.

I do think that after 34 years a GN will be worth more than an 87 Monte SS or a 90 something Impala SS but that's just me. Tough call when comparing to a same era Camaro IROC even though it was a POS. The Camaro IROC will probably be worth more in 34 years because there will be very few IROC's still running...

Let's take that 70 GS455........it ain't worth anything if you can't sell it, and believe me, you can't sell it. Remember, I'm waiting for the phone call on a Buick but all the BUYERS went out and bought that slow a$$ 396SS. I probably don't have to tell you how many people don't even know what a Grand National is......"hey, what size motor ya got in there?".......let alone a TType. "what's a TType?" They (chevy sheep) all think they're Monte Carlos.

 

[BlackBandit]

That's true.

 

[Six Banger]

Actually, 89 Camaro RSs are 305s with tbi. That is even more lame.

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Originally posted by Red Regal T
Let's take that 70 GS455........it ain't worth anything if you can't sell it, and believe me, you can't sell it. Remember, I'm waiting for the phone call on a Buick but all the BUYERS went out and bought that slow a$$ 396SS. I probably don't have to tell you how many people don't even know what a Grand National is......"hey, what size motor ya got in there?".......let alone a TType. "what's a TType?" They (chevy sheep) all think they're Monte Carlos.

Hope that slow a$$ 396SS comment wasn't aimed at me? I bought my Camaro back in 1983 (long before 99.9% of the population knew what a GN was) and then took 12 years restoring it. I liked the GN and bought one new in 1987, which I still have. I now have 2 of them and still have the Camaro. I keep them not as investments but because I like them and they are fun to drive and race!