Effects of some Alcohols on Aquamist Pumps

[boostm3]

I know that many of you running Aquamist pumps think nothing of running hi content Isopropyl or Ethanol mixtures. Mostly for you guys, I need to relay the following. Ive been working with Aquamist on doing some pump specs. Ive taken measurements of fluid delivery rates and water pressure rates from the .7, .8, .9, and 1.0 mm nozzles.

It turns out that both my delivery rates, and my pressure rates are down from the specs shown in their chart.

Aquamist is telling me that the likely cause, after examining my numbers, is swelling seals, due most likely to my early use of Isopropyl mixtures in excess of 20% which is their max recommendation for that alky. I havent used Denatured, but Ethanol is even worse. Anything over 5% will degrade the pump.

Ive talked to alot of you guys who poo poo this stuff, but guys, its no joke. My 1mm nozzle is flowing no differently than my .7mm nozzle. for instance, the 1mm jet is supposed to flow 335ml/minute. Mine flowed 265ml/minute! I initially used Isopropyl mixtures of almost 50/50. I didnt use it for more than a couple of months, but, apparently, that must have been enough to do it.

Incidentally, we ruled out all kinds of other causes, by taking voltage measurements at the pump both with engine off, engine at idle, and engine at 2K rpms. All my voltage measurements were perfect according to aquamist. We ruled out all else, and its come down to the pump, and specifically to degraded performance.

They'll know more once they examine my pump. If youve been running Denatured in an Aquamist pump, or Isopropyl > 20% strength, I would suggest strongly that you start taking some flow and pressure measurements! You may be in need of a new pump

 

[Chuck Leeper]

PUMPZ??

I looked at making a hi flo system for the bigger engines, using the Aqua parts. As I recall, it says VERY plainly on the pump that it IS NOT to be used w/ alky..

 

[blackbuick87]

You'd think for the price you pay for an Aquamist pump it would be able to handle it. Or that they would put out an alcohol safe pump. Oh well, looks like we are better off just using fuel pumps since they last just as long and are cheaper

 

[boostm3]

Guys, first its not that it cant be used with alcohol. This just isnt true. It CAN be used with alcohol. However, you need to know the limits. With methanol, you can use 50%. With Isopropyl, you can use 20%. With Ethanol, you can use 5%. Clearly, Methanol is the way to go, and the folks at Aquamist have absolutelyl no problem with you using up to a 50% methanol solution!

And, its not a matter of cost, or anything like that. Aquamist's position has always been that water is the best coolant you can use, and because it doesnt burn, its got infinite octane, ie, no danger of detonation. Because of this, and its heat latency, they just feel this is the better way to go. However, as Ive said, despite this, you can use up to 50% methanol. But where guys get into trouble is where they try and stretch this to include Denatured. This will not work!

 

[blackbuick87]

Unfortunately methanol is the most corrosive type of alcohol available. So you might save your pump but at what cost? I would rather go through a pump every once in a while then have my throttle blade rot off.

 

[boostm3]

I would rather go through a pump every once in a while then have my throttle blade rot off.

Thats just plain ridiculous. In a max of a 50/50 concentration, the methanol has lost most of its corrosive properties. I assure you, with a max of 50/50 mix, your throttle body blade will be just fine. Sure at full strength it can be a problem. Not at 50/50 or less.

 

[Turbo__Tim]

It's great to hear from you again! Could you convert the mm's to ounces, or tell me the conversion? I looked for the conversion factor before, and couldn't find it.

Thanks!

 

[boostm3]

Hi Tim, I think you mean ml to oz, not mm to oz. Use 1 oz = 30 ml/cc.

Im glad I detected this. It was through my working with the aquamist engineers, that we started tracking this gremlin down. To look at the spray pattern and quantity, youd never know there was a problem. The spray cone looks dense, fine, and full. But you really need to take all the measurements to detect if something is askew.

I only decided to post it on this forum, Tim, cause I know alot of guys over here love to run Denatured, and while most of them are using domestic goods, a few are using aquamist pumps. Ive heard from a few, 'hell, I use denatured with my aquamist pump, and I ve never noticed a problem...' seems to be the attitude. Well, the only way theyre going to 'notice' a problem, is to start measuring nozzle output and system pressure against spec. Of course, if theyre running aquamist pumps, but with sombody else's nozzle, Im not sure where theyre going to find the spec!

Hopefully the new pump will produce the results with agree with the spec, and I can then start benchmarking it from the beginning. at the same time, they can examine my current pump, and advise me what they find.

 

[blackbuick87]

Why did you look into this anyway? Did your car start knocking all of a sudden? how did you know your pump was not up to snuff

 

[boostm3]

Why did you look into this anyway? Did your car start knocking all of a sudden? how did you know your pump was not up to snuff

That's a good question. No, the system was working fine. After all, the .7mm jet Ive been using only produced 15 ml less in a minute's time then the spec, so clearly, this was doing its job and keeping me powerful and smooth.

What brought it up is I had been looking for a way to benchmark my system anyway. Aquamist makes various device add ons to check various components of the system. I didnt want anything so permanent, but I thought Id like a way to sporadically check the pressure and flow rates, just to make sure things were running ok. After all, we all have standard equipment to monitor all our other equipment on board. The cars all have checks for all key systems. So, frankly, I felt a little 'naked' with my water injection. So I got hold of a water pressure gage that Ts in well with my 4mm hosing. When that registered pressure considerably below spec, the aquamist engineers first had be measure voltages across various parts of the system. When all that checked out well, the only thing left to do was to check flow rates. Along with pressures, the flow rates for most of the nozzle sizes was below what it should be.

Thats when they hypothesized that the strong Isopropyl mixture I ran when I first got teh sytem last January (2:1 Iso to water) was enough to swell up the seals, and limit the pumping power. Or it could be a broken return spring. We wont know til I take apart the pump, and have a look, and have them have a look. In the mean time, Ill benchmark my new pump, and see whats up.

 

[yellow95]

Boost M3- Is there a chart on nozzle output that I can access?

gary

 

[Turbo__Tim]

Good post.

Now that I have the conversion, I can tell you that using the SMC pump with aquamists' 1 mm nozzle, I can outpup 12 ounces in 2 minutes. (basically about half your output).

Can I assume that the aquamist pump puts out twice the pressure? What is your output pressure?

Thanks, you are a mad scientist..

Also is Aquamist still planning on using different seals soon? I believe that was the plan....

 

[boostm3]

Originally posted by Turbo__Tim
Good post.

Now that I have the conversion, I can tell you that using the SMC pump with aquamists' 1 mm nozzle, I can outpup 12 ounces in 2 minutes. (basically about half your output).

Can I assume that the aquamist pump puts out twice the pressure? What is your output pressure?

Thanks, you are a mad scientist..

Also is Aquamist still planning on using different seals soon? I believe that was the plan....

Tim, yea, Ive gotten quite involved with this. Too much time and curiosity on my hands, I guess. Anyway, I'll post both the spec values from aquamist for both pressure and flow rate per minute, and then I'll post my results.

Aquamist spec:

SIZE CC/MIN @PRESSURE(psi)
.6mm . 230 . 118
.7mm . 265 . 99
.8mm . 293 . 81
.9mm . 315 . 66
1.0mm . 335 . 54


My results:

.7mm
Pressure: 65 psi
Delivery rate for 1 min: 250ml

.8mm
Pressure: 65 psi
Delivery rate for 1 min: 245ml

.9mm
Pressure: 65 psi
Delivery rate for 1 min: 245ml

1mm
Pressure: 65 psi
Delivery rate for 1 min: 265ml

No nozzle, just 4mm hose
Delivery rate for 1 min: 500 ml


>> I can outpup 12 ounces in 2 minutes. (basically about half your output). <<

Actually, its more than half mine. With my strange working pump, I put out 265 ml in a minute with the 1mm jet. You put out 6 oz which is 180 ml in a minute with the 1mm jet. Spec calls for this jet to put out 335 ml per minute! You are about as short from me, as I am from spec on this one nozzle size. Yet with my .7mm jet that IM using these days, I put out 250 ml, and spec is 265 ml, so Im only shy abut 15 cc which is no biggie. You can see from the chart above what the spec pressure is vs what Im running with it.

There are some paradoxes with my results that we just cant explain at this time. Hopefully, the new pump will tell us something. If it behaves the same as my current pump, then, hey, all bets are off. Some things just dont make any sense here.

regards..

 

[boostm3]

Tim I forgot to ask you, which SMC pump are you running? they make alot of pressure models, and some are as strong as the Aquamist pump is supposed to be. Unless someone wants to run a different alcohol than Methanol, or, unless they want to run greater than a 50% methanol concentration, there's really no reason not to use it, from this standpoint. Pricewise is another story.

In terms of pumping pressure, did you know that with the .4mm jet, the aquamist pump is rated at 175 psi?!! I dont think you can get too many other pumps in this market stronger than that! But you have to rate the pump per nozzle size. Otherwise, its kind of meaningless. Like if I say, 'hey, this here pump is a 100 psi pump!'. Thats all well and good, but, unless you know at what nozzle size this was measured, it really doesnt tell you anything.

Like, Ive got open this page on the shureflo website, and I just dont understand their specs. For instance, Ive got a pump enlarged on my site, and it says that its got a max of like 40 psi, well down from what even Im using in my weakened weird state. But it doesnt give you a nozzle size for that pressure. Then, instead of doing flow rates like Im used to seeing at aquamist, its got gpm an lpm rates. What are those, gallons per minute or liters per minute? Grams per minute? or what.

its got an 'inlet' psi measurement of 30 psi. what is that?

Ok heres another pump rated at 65 psi. I dont understand how this 65 psi pump can put out 5.5 gallons per minute, when at 65 psi, all my pump can put out via a .7mm nozzle is about 250 ml per minute, which of course is orders of magnitude less than 5.5 gallons per minute! Even with no nozzle, my pump put out a max of 500 ml per minute, which is about equal to 1 cup! How on earth do they put out over 5 gallons per minute? I just dont understand....

regards.