FM good on a stock car?

[strikeeagle]

Yes, Nick. I could never understand the PS intercooler thing. I can't see chopping up these cars - plug-and-play is worth a hell of a lot to me. Hey, it's bad enough sometimes getting the so-called plug-and-play stuff to fit like you'd like.

I'm a diehard FM guy, but there's still ice in the river here.

 

[Nick Micale]

We have devised a way to install the PS w/o cutting the core support/inner fenders. Need a good aluminum welder and about $7-800 to do a nice job with it. Silicone hoses and custom up pipes are not cheap!

 

[86brick]

Originally posted by Nick Micale
We have devised a way to install the PS w/o cutting the core support/inner fenders. Need a good aluminum welder and about $7-800 to do a nice job with it. Silicone hoses and custom up pipes are not cheap!

Why would somebody spend that kind of money to install a PS when they can just get a PTE or a Cotton unit that fits without all of this trouble?

 

[Nick Micale]

Originally posted by 86brick
Why would somebody spend that kind of money to install a PS when they can just get a PTE or a Cotton unit that fits without all of this trouble?

Good question!

It seems for a race-only car, this is an excellent, efficient I/C.

We think [at this point] it will be more efficient than a PTE front mount, and as good as Cotton's, but $500 less.

Only have preliminary numbers and data, so it will be a while to complete the testing.

We also have a very large, new FM kit in the works.

 

[KillrV6]

if you want a front mount that goes good w/ a pretty stock car,

i think the eastern front mount is a good choice. it has 2.5 inch piping, which is much more senseable than the huge 3 inch that comes w/ the PTE (for our level of power anyways)

plus, i think its small enough that it does not really effect cooling as much as a larger unit.


you would need to find one used though, they dont make them any more....

 

[tracer]

Why would somebody spend that kind of money to install a PS when they can just get a PTE or a Cotton unit that fits without all of this trouble?

If I didn't have to cut up the car I would definitely be interested.

 

[Ormand]

If you want to make less horsepower, removing the intercooler is a great idea. (That's a fact, not an opinion) A front mount will weigh more, can cause cooling problems, and will probably increase turbo lag. But at very high flows, it will definitely increase charge cooling vs a stock location IC. As mentioned above, those flows will get you into low 12s, so there is other stuff that provides better bang for the buck than going to an FM IC.

 

[KillrV6]

uh oh ormand. now you said it!

i believe Bruce has tested weather or not removing the stock 87 intercooler decreases power or not. that whole project and a write up on it can be found on GNttype.org, which of course is not currently in existance.

what exactly were yourfindings bruce? my memory is cloudy

 

[Ormand]

I believe that GM ran some tests on the turbo without the IC. They called their tests the 1984 GNs and the 1985 Gns. Those tests, and there were lots, showed that the IC engines made more power than the "hot air" engines. Now I have no doubt that if someone really, really wants to put together an engine with an IC that makes less power than one without an IC, that person could succeed. And, if that person were lacking a few clues in the basics of physics and thermo, then that person might even believe that something had been proved. However, the laws of physics, and of thermo, apply equally to everyone. Just a lack of knowledge of those laws does NOT exempt one from the effects.

 

[KillrV6]

i wasnt trying to say you were wrong, i think that bruce found that the 86 87 intercoolers dont simply explain the full power gain from 85 to 86, and that the intercooler setup is so inefficient in the first place that its power can be replacated with no intercooler and a bit of alky?

again, i dont remember the test exactly


but yes, an intercooler is better than no intercooler by all means!

 

[boostcreep]

I've heard that the stock IC is only about 20% efficient at best. Bruce....is this what you measured for efficiency?

Nick

 

[NEARING]

Stocker takes a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNG time to cool off on a hot day at the track.

 

[Ormand]

The IC may take long time to cool off to amibient, but as long as cools to something less than the temp of air LEAVING THE TURBO, it will be of benefit. Go to the Mitsu site, [Boost pressure/temp/density calculator
and check some numbers. For example, with 18 lbs boost, and 100 air into the turbo, the outlet will be about 300 degrees. Depends on turbo efficiency, of course. As long as the IC is less than 300 degrees, it will provide cooling. That web site will let you plug an IC pressure loss, so you can do trial and error to see when the IC loses its punch. With a 50% efficient IC, AND a two pound pressure loss, you would still gain about 10% in air density, which is what makes power. (NOT pressure)
Of course, as soon as the car starts to move, there will air flow past the IC, to cool it off, plus the air flow generated by the little fan on the crank pulley. The stock IC, especially with a big neck, is good for most any power level the stock turbo will provide. (numbers I've seen are much better than the 20% mentioned by boost creep.) Once you get into higher flows than the stock turbo, then there will be more advantages to a bigger IC, and you can weigh the advantages of an FM vs a stock location. but, as Killrv6 mentioned, if you don't like an intercooler, it is possible to make up the power loss by using alky injection, and other power boosters. Of course, if you used them WITH the IC, you would have even more power.

 

[bruce]

Originally posted by Ormand

Of course, as soon as the car starts to move, there will air flow past the IC, to cool it off, plus the air flow generated by the little fan on the crank pulley. The stock IC, especially with a big neck, is good for most any power level the stock turbo will provide. (numbers I've seen are much better than the 20% mentioned by boost creep.) Once you get into higher flows than the stock turbo, then there will be more advantages to a bigger IC, and you can weigh the advantages of an FM vs a stock location. but, as Killrv6 mentioned, if you don't like an intercooler, it is possible to make up the power loss by using alky injection, and other power boosters. Of course, if you used them WITH the IC, you would have even more power.

If you mean 65+MPH as starts to move. It takes alot of airflow to start to cool the stock intercooler. And without the fan it just about won't do any cooling at less then 70 MPH. I only mention this as having actually relocated the MAT, and watched what happens.

Riddle me this. If the stock turbo puts so much heat into the charge, then wouldn't a F/M be most effective on a turbo that was generating the greatest increases in MAT temps?, ie the little stock turbo?.

The only way an Intercooler is effective when it gets to be effective. Having the radiator discharge air blow against the shroud, heats the shroud, and that heats the intercooler, or mins the temp difference across it. If in doubt touch the shroud, it gets toasty warm. And the main reason it's cooler then the radiator discharge air is that it's shedding heat into the air being srawn thru it.

As I showed in some data logs, Alky injection offers all the advantages of F/M for a street car. On a 1/4'er you spend the last 1/2 of the track at high enough speeds that a F/M can start to be effective, in actually shedding off some heat. But, that second half of the track is generally above the speed limits other then in Montana.

Using Alky with a F/M just lessens the effect of the Alky. Alky takes heat to vaporise, so the only effect the alky will really have is in the combustion reactions. And for that water will work just as well, and possibly better, from some stuff I've looked at.

And there may be issues with using Alky or water injection pre Intercooler. ie the AL may get oxidized, and form a heat barrier, on the inside of the intercooler, and that would seriously hurt it's ability to transfer heat.

 

[KEVINS]

Originally posted by NEARING
Stocker takes a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNG time to cool off on a hot day at the track.

Not if you cool it down with a sprayer In 15 minutes I can get the motor down to less than 160* and it will take a few minutes of idling to get the water temp back above 160 before a run...
Without the sprayer it takes forever,tho..lol..

ks

 

[eddiedellz]

hmm what do you guys think about thoes c02 sprayers that are sapose to cool off the intercooler would that bring up the efficency of the stocker?

 

[azgn]

I think if you use one at the track, you will be invited to leave.......

 

[KillrV6]

at the track, the watter spreyers are illegal.


CO2 however is ok.

 

[eddiedellz]

its illegal to spray the intercooler with c02? heh was not aware