Full throttled the GN for the 1st time today

[turbowannabe]

Hey guys,
Well like the subject says, I just full throttled my 87 GN, for the first time since I've gotten the motor in, today. The fresh motor has about 1300 miles on it now, all stock with a fresh bottom end crank cut 10-mains 20-rods. I'm running a Joe Lubrant 23* 50#inj. 100 octane or alky chip, which I think may be part of my problem. I don't have the alky going right now, since I need to put in some new wiring but I was running around a half tank of 93 octane with Outlaw octane booster added before I went out and got on her. My BlM's pretty much stay at 150 at idle and a little under at cruise speed, and my INT numbers look a lot better it fluctuates between 128 and low 140's at cruise, will pop up to 150 when I sit at idle for an extended period of time.
So, when I go out and mat it, I check my scanmaster and it records 781-02's and 14.5-knock retard at 100mph . But, I'm thinking that it's at least partially false knock since the car seems to be running really good and I did not notice any odd noises whenever I get knock reading. I do have a BGC 23-row stretch intercooler in which the shroud is rubbing against the sway bar, and this crappy Poston's 3" downpipe which periodically hits the frame rail. I just moved up to chicago, and am waiting till I start automotive school at UTI until I can do further tuning and such. Like I said, I can't ever hear hear anything that sounds wrong when getting on it, and I would figure I should be able to feel or hear SOMETHING with readings like 14.5 degrees of knock retard. It runs really strong, but I get very small knock readings sometimes over 10psi and that damn 14.5 reading I got around 17 psi.
I've replaced damn near all of the vacuum hoses, and get no malfunction codes. But, I know 150 blm is not good at all, my integrator looks a hell of a lot better and my O2's fluctuate just like they should whenever I'm driving it normally. Let me know what you guys think, I know I'm definately NOT going to be doing any more WOT and am just going to keep driving it as slow as possible with staying under 10psi.

thanks
-Dan

 

[GNBeswick]

Hmm...seems to me your int is a little high...should be at 128 at WOT and between 120-130 for cruise. The BLMs are high as well, which is indicated a little leaner condition. Ive got a rich condition, and its bugging the hell out of me too
Might wanna try checking this article written by Razor out for your high BLMS
http://www.t6p.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1127

 

[ijames]

I think that until you do the test where you up the octane to over 100 and repeat the exact same driving conditions and see the retard drastically go down you cannot make any assumptions about false knock. I'm a conservative cuss, and I basically refuse to believe in false knock until it is clearly proven; until then it is real knock and I believe it's hurting the motor. 99% of the false knock I've ever seen was from tire spin, mostly from a standstill. Depending on how agressive your chip is about pulling timing and putting it back, you might not feel any surging, and while on my car I can hear knocking sounds at 15 deg of retard at low speed I don't know if I could hear it at 100 mph or not. I'm not familiar with Outlaw octane booster but most products I've seen will only raise the octane from say 93 to maybe 94 or so, not nearly up to 100 octane. That takes significant percentages of xylene or toluene, or real 100 octane race gas (or higher octane leaded fuels but I'm guessing that you don't want lead).

Whenever the INT is averaging over 128 the ecm will add to the BLM to get the INT average down (and vice versa, subtracting from BLM when INT under 128). In your case the ecm thinks it needs to add some fuel so the BLM is up at 150 but it thinks that that is about enough so the INT is averaging close to 128 - if it still thought it was lean the INT would also be up near 150. Anyway, Julio's article is good. You could have an exhaust leak or a vacuum leak causing your high BLM at idle, although you say they only drop a little at cruise which to me means that your fuel pressure is lower than your chip expects - try raising the fuel pressure to get the cruise BLM between 128 and 135 or so and see how your idle responds.

 

[onefastjackass]

Originally posted by turbowannabe
records 781-02's and 14.5-knock retard at 100mph . But, I'm thinking that it's at least partially false knock since the car seems to be running really good and I did not notice any odd noises whenever I get knock reading. -Dan

A lot of time you WILL NOT here anything with true knock !!

If the chip is actually dialing in 23 degrees at then it is too much for any decent boost level.

Not saying false knock cannot happen at higher speeds but usually false knock happens at lower speeds since the engine is loaded more and you have more tire spin etc.

Don't take this the wrong way but you might as well have just thrown money down the drain instead of buying that octane booster.

When they say up to 3 points they mean .3 difference.So 93 would become a max of 93.3.And probibly more like 93.1.

If you need to spike the tank then go with xylene at a max of 30% mix. Go to this link if you want to learn more but the prices quoted are outdated http://www.rennie-macintosh.com/techarea/misc/octanebooster.html

Hope some of this helps and once again not trying to offend just trying to help. Kevin

 

[turbowannabe]

I know I do have an exhaust leak where the turbo meats the downpipe, but I didn't think that could cause any problems since it's after ther turbo/02-sensor. Someone gave me and exhaust donut, but like I said I don't have a place or tools right now to do it since I'm living in an apartment.
I've had this problem for a while, and tried unleaded 100octane Turboblue, with almost no difference. I know my headers are crack free and I have brand new gaskets on them. My 02 sensor is also good, and I replaced damn near all of the vacuum lines. My fuel pressure is set at exactly 45psi and I just realized one of the other aspects of my chip is 100% Duty Cycle.
I'll have to check and make sure since I was paying attention to my knock and didn't even get to check BLM on the short time I was full throttled, but I'm pretty sure my chip locks at 128 on both BLM and INT at WOT. Even though I'm getting these 150's at idle , I can smell it running rich. I'm going to turn my wastegate boost all the way down for safety purposes right now, and I'll have to find out where they sell over 100octane gas around here (Carol Stream, IL). What kind of acceptable BLM numbers should I be looking for during cruise? I believe I've checked razors article out before, but it's definately worth taking another really good look or two or more at.

thanks for the help
-Dan

 

[gnx7]

that Outlaw stuff is absolute crap and like onefastj said it only raises it a few tenths of a full point.

If the chip is truly 23* you will need 100 octane at the minimum I would think. 7 gallons of 92/93, 3 gallons of Xylene (117 octane) or Tuolene (114 octane), and 2 ounces of MMO (Marvel Mystery Oil) will make a safe 100 octane. Get the 5 gallon jugs from your local paint store of Xylene or Tuolene and expect to pay about $6-7.50 per gallon for it. I usually mix up (2) 5 gallon jugs of the stuff and keep it around.

Don't exceed 30% ratio as it will give cold start driveability problems.

Good luck.

-GNX7

 

[1ARUNEM]

If you want to be installing ANOTHER motor soon, keep running it like that. You should NOT be running that boost on pump gas with a 100 octane chip.

Everyone has to learn, just don't make it the hard way..

Get a 93 octane chip, turn it down to 15psi and tune it PROPERLY from there..

And as mentioned, don't waste your money on out of the can octane boosters..

Goodluck..

 

[turbowannabe]

so your telling me they sell this xylene and Tuolene at paint store? I've got another chip I'm going to try later tonight, but it says it's a 1500rpm accelerated idle. Having that kind of an idle would suck, but it's worth a shot. If that doesn't work, then I'm going to go through the Pegged BLM checklist razor made.

-dan

 

[turbowannabe]

I tried that other chip I have and it's an 1100 idle not 1500. It gave me pretty good readings at first, but after driving for a while my blm's were up at 160 or less and my integrator was way down low to 110-130. When I first drove the car at about 140degrees farenheit I had good blm's and int numbers around 128, but after full throttling it(turned boost all the way down, got ONLY 10psi max) my numbers got really crazy like I said. It could have very easily have been that things needed adjusted with the installation of that chip, but I personally think the other chip sucks as well, I was told it was for winter driving with the 1100rpm idle. Untill after I got on it, it wasn't even giving me any 02 numbers. But, with the use of that chip, on full throttle with 10psi I got no knock at all. So, I'm going to start with getting another 50lb street chip, hoping that is a big part of my problem since my car showed no knock at all with this other chip.

-Dan

 

[onefastjackass]

You are getting the correct ideas.

One thing you may want to consider is that sometimes youre other numbers will get all whacked out if you have the wastgate turned down far enough that the puck is not closing all the way or is rattling around.

Also an exhaust leak could be fine at low heat then get worse once warmed up.

 

[postal]

23* chip, pump gas, and summer weather = knock at lower boost levels than you think. Get the alky installed on the car. Dont worry about BLM's or INT's to much. Just get the car to have good o2's and no knock at WOT.

Jason

 

[RICHIE HIGH PSI]

Originally posted by postal
23* chip, pump gas, and summer weather = knock at lower boost levels than you think. Get the alky installed on the car. Dont worry about BLM's or INT's to much. Just get the car to have good o2's and no knock at WOT.

Jason

That is not good advice you SHOULD be worried about the BLM!

Could be a vac. leak!
VAC LEAK + BOOST = LEAN= BOOM!

 

[dentmasters01]

Originally posted by RICHIE HIGH PSI
That is not good advice you SHOULD be worried about the BLM!

Could be a vac. leak!
VAC LEAK + BOOST = LEAN= BOOM!

If you have a vac. leak and you go under boost. That vac. leak will become a "boost leak" Right?? Which should, theoretically, should cause a rich condition as all the "boost" isn't going into the cylinders. but all the fuel is. I'm just thinking out loud. Please tell me if I am way off.

Unless of course the vac. leak is the wg line. That would cause an overboost problem but it doesn't seem like thats whats happening. I don't know. Just thinking.

 

[RICHIE HIGH PSI]

Well than you put a pin hole in your fuel regulator line and build boost. see what happens. It wont build pressure.
Richie

 

[dentmasters01]

ahh yes. That would be a problem wouldn't it

 

[RICHIE HIGH PSI]

Just a little problem.
HTH
Richie